The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

9 Anne-Marie Maw
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All right. This is a podcast with Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. My name is John Mahalio, your host and the president and founder of Elementary Advancement Solutions. Today, it's my honor to have Anne Marie Ma as my guest today.

Anne Marie has dedicated 25 years of her career to working with primary schools. she began her career in New South Wales and has since taught in various locations, including the inner west and northern beaches of Sydney and Ontario, Canada. Currently, she's the principal of St. Agatha's Primary School, Clayfield, located in Brisbane, northern suburbs.

Anne Marie likes to volunteer in her community, go for walks with her dog, and practice Pilates in her leisure time. Welcome, Anne Marie, it's great to have you!

Thank you so much, John. It's so good to be with you today. Of

I know when we spoke couple of weeks ago, really enjoyed our conversation. We were talking about so many things. It was like, wow, this [00:01:00] is really great. Make a great topic today. And so it's so great that we were able to finally connect on this. and so one of the things that I've really learned about you is how much you enjoy giving your students a voice and, and, and really letting them live, live their faith as a Catholic school leader.

Can you talk a little bit about, to our leaders and about to our listeners about where this passion came from?

course, John. I, I absolutely love giving back to my community. I'm very involved in my community through a range of different ways. I do a lot of voluntary work at my church and I'm also involved in St Vincent de Paul where I go out and visit families and look after people and do Christmas hampers at Christmastime and drop off little bundles to people, which is wonderful.

I've always been a person who lives my faith through action and working in a primary school. So here in Australia, in Brisbane, where I'm principal at St Agatha's, the children that I work with, [00:02:00] they're about five years old through to 12 years old. And the children just have the most generous hearts.

I want to make sure that I'm fostering that kindness and that ability to be able to help others. And I think for me as principal, being able to nurture that in children means that they will recognise they can do anything at all. And With that kindness in their heart, they can go out and they can make the world a better place.

So I think it's so important. I remember being nurtured when I was young. My family were great as far as, if I wanted to help or if I wanted to start a little stall or something to raise some money to help out others. So I just really want to nurture that in others.

when we met, you used a term that was, was very interesting. You said Social Entrepreneurship. can you describe to our listeners what that means and what, what, how that happens at your school? How does your school make that happen for the students?

Sure, I love the expression social entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship's very, very big as we know at the moment. The idea of social entrepreneurship [00:03:00] is around essentially non for profits, doing something in that space to help others. So, at a local level, it might be something as simple as the lemonade stand or the cupcake stall or something like that to be a bake sale, to be able to bring in some money, to be able to help families in need.

just to give you an example, St. Agatha's where I'm principal, St. Agatha is the patron saint of breast cancer. So Breast Cancer Awareness Month here in Australia is in October. last year during Breast Cancer Awareness Month, I had a group of year four girls, creating a little jewelry store. the theme of Breast Cancer Awareness Month is pink.

And so they made a pink. bracelets, pink earrings, little brooches and badges. And they sold those little pink jewelry items throughout the month of October. They raised money and they gave that money to the McGrath Foundation, which is a big breast cancer awareness foundation here in Australia breast cancer nurses.

So [00:04:00] that's that idea of social entrepreneurship, creating little businesses, to be able to help others. I just recently had a meeting with two year six girls who want to start their own jewelry business. And I said, that sounds wonderful. they are opening an Etsy store and wonderful girls. That's absolutely brilliant.

And they said. Miss Mott, we were really hoping that we might be able to maybe in the last week of school term before the Easter holidays, could we maybe hold a couple of market days before school? And then we'd donate some of our money to Caritas. Caritas Australia is the I'm not sure if you know about it over in the States.

Yeah, it's Project Compassion is the big campaign to help people in countries less fortunate than ours.

And so let me ask this as you have folks, cause I'm sure that the domino effect could kick in and kids come to you with different ideas. Kids come to you with, Hey, I saw this person do it, so we want to do that too. Number one would be, how do you make sure that if you're saying yes to things, that we're setting the kids [00:05:00] up for success because, I guess one of the things, if something hasn't been well thought out or things like that are there any steps that you make them go through?

and B, how do you make sure that we're not saying yes to everything that it is thought out and planned out in advance?

John, are you familiar with that TV show Shark Tank?

Yes, I am.

that is a meeting in my office. That is, honestly, it's Shark Tank. I say to the children, I will listen to your ideas, absolutely. You need to pitch me your idea. You need to, if a child comes up in the playground to me and says, Miss Moore, I want to run a cupcake store.

I'll say, okay, if you want to do this, you have to work out your business plan. You have to come make an appointment with the front office secretary, make an appointment with me, come in and pitch your idea. If I lose about 50 percent of kids at that point, they're like, Oh, I have to go all the way to the office to make an appointment.

Oh, I'd rather just stay here and play. The 50 percent who actually go to the office, make [00:06:00] that appointment when they come to my office. If they are not prepared, if they're talking off the top of their head, rather than having an actual presentation, I do say they have to have visuals, they have to have some sort of poster or something written to show that they're actually committed to this.

Then, if they're not organized. I will send them away and I'll say, I'm willing to listen to you, but you have to show me you're committed so they can come back in two weeks time, have another go. That's where I lose about another 30 percent of the kids. But for those ones who are really, really determined they will come in, they will have their plans set up.

They will have written through what they're planning on doing when they're planning on doing it, what they need, who's going to help them. And I always say to the students, so what do you need from me? And quite often they'll say from you we will need a table for our stall. Can you put something in the newsletter?

Can you help us set up on the day? Okay, I can. [00:07:00] So that shows that the children are really really committed to the cause. I'll give you one example, which was in Brisbane, we often have floods. Unfortunately, it is an area that we sometimes really suffer from floods. two years ago, I think it was, we had a really bad flood and in some outlying areas from Brisbane, and there's a little place called Lismore it was decimated by the flood and The Catholic school down at Lismore completely annihilated.

There was a group of year four boys who came and saw me and said, we need to do something about this. And I said, okay. You need to work out a plan and then I'm more than happy to help you. They came back with a business plan around a bake sale, had everything written down. They'd already made contact with their parents saying, can you help us make these cookies?

It was lovely cause the parents had emailed me saying, Oh, are you okay

with

And the children ended up, it was so wonderful. They ended up raising a thousand dollars. For that school. [00:08:00] It was absolutely brilliant. And it just shows when you are committed, when you want to help others. I always say to the children, you're a someone, because we hear that expression, Oh, someone should do something.

Someone should fix this. Someone should, well, you're a someone. What are you going to do? You are a someone. And if we can give that power to students to recognize that they are somebody and they can make a difference, what an incredible world this is going to be.

Absolutely. And not only are they giving back, but you're giving them that platform to be creative, to take something that they're passionate about. But also to think it through, because, hey, we're gonna do a lemonade stand, and that sounds like a good time, but then we forget that, oh, we gotta actually do cups, and we gotta actually have a table, and we gotta pick our location.

So it's thinking through all of those things and it was something that, obviously, that, it's an interest of them. So, I think that's tremendous right there. Yeah. it's really wonderful and what I also find with the children of If things don't work as well as [00:09:00] they wanted to, or if they're finding it really hard to get themselves organized, I do coach them along the way. I do not take over though. And I think that's the other power, because this is coming from the children to build their self confidence and belief that I can actually do that.

And this is hard work. I don't want to take over, clear the path for them and fix it for them because this is also part of their learning and this is something I really want them to strive. We do have a number of families here who are business owners and so, I've been talking to those families and the number of them who say, it's so good, I can see myself in my child when they're working through that problem and they're, they just say, I don't know how to fix this bit of coaching and guidance.

They get through that hurdle and they're on the other side and just the pride these children feel is absolutely brilliant.

So the boom of new businesses that will be coming in your area in the next 15 years will automatically be attributed back to your school.

I think so.[00:10:00]

You're, you're growing the economy down there. That's the way to do

it.

So one of the things that I used to always hear is, as a school principal, was we want to do a service day, or we want to do this service project, and the extent of that service project is, bring a dollar and get to wear a pair of jeans, and you'd say, well, what are you doing the service project for, so that I can wear jeans?

But where's the dollar going? I don't know. I was giving it to Miss Ma so that I could wear jeans. I have no idea where that money went to, but I wore it, I brought a dollar and I got to wear jeans. To truly make an impact was, as you're saying, you talk about being people of action and, and being bring things in your own way through the Spirit of Jesus.

How do you feel we can do this as Catholic school leaders beyond just that bring a dollar and get to wear a pair of jeans or things like that? And how can you create people of action so that we're educating people on the cause that we're raising these funds towards?

I'm so glad you asked that question, John, because that's something I often wrestle with. I have a little bit of an [00:11:00] aversion to the old gold coin day. We call it a gold coin day. Yeah, wear free dress. We wear uniforms here in Australia, so wear free dress. get to bring in a gold coin. It then becomes, I guess we're outsourcing and we're thinking that a problem can only be fixed with money.

And don't get me wrong. We do need funds and we do need some sort of financial support to help those in need, but we actually need an attitude change. We need to be people who look through compassion. So we've actually pulled back a little on the gold coin donation for our service days.

And we look more at what it actually means. So it might be, for example if it is a day rather than wearing free dress, it might just be we call it a splash of colour. So if it's Harmony Day, for example the colour for Harmony Day is orange. So we'll say just wear a splash of orange for your uniform.

So got your normal school uniform on, it might be orange socks or an orange cap. [00:12:00] And then we'll spend the day really focused on, well, what does Harmony Day mean? Harmony Day for us in Australia is all about diversity and celebrating all different cultures in Australia. They're the kind of things that we can do to recognise it's about education.

And I want to make sure that our children know that Making a difference can start right in front of them, rather than having to look halfway across the world. If you're looking halfway across the world and you're not seeing that person right in front of you who is really struggling, that person we talk about, blessed are the poor in spirit, it doesn't necessarily mean monetary.

They might be someone who Lonely doesn't have a friend. They're poor in their friendships, poor in their relationships maybe poor in their mental health. So how can we help those people? What can we do through action to help others in need? And it does not have to be financial good manners. And kindness does not cost a cent.

And if we can live that, then we are [00:13:00] absolutely living in the light and the pathway of Jesus.

Well, and I think that that's right hits the nail right on the head, because there's things that we can control, there's things that we can influence, and then there's other things that we can't. And, there's a great book up here that I've read that says, if you want to change the world, start by fixing your bed.

And take care of the things that are right in front of you, and that makes all the difference in the world right there. And I think that hits the nail right on the head.

Yeah, John, I don't know if you've ever seen that meme and it says everyone wants to change the world, but no one wants to change the toilet paper.

I have not, but now I'm going to have to search for this.

Start with those little things right in front of you.

Amen to that. now your school's motto because as you said, it was founded by the Presentation Sisters at St. Agatha, yeah, and one of the mottos that you use is Deeds Not Words. And, it, this is powerful, because, a lot of times, hey, that sounds great, hey, we're Deeds Not Words, but then when it comes time to integrating that into your school [00:14:00] culture, it's kind of like, whoa, we didn't really mean that, it just sounded really good.

How do you integrate that into your school's culture?

think the way we integrate into our school's culture is through a range of ways. one of the ways is through our expected behaviours here at school. So, deeds not words. is about actually doing something. If you see a piece of rubbish on the ground, pick it up. Don't just say there's a piece of rubbish there and someone should do something about it.

You're a someone, as I say, you're a someone, do

something. The other way is through, we've got a really great buddy system here at the school. So our senior students look after our youngest members of the school, our prep students who are five year olds, our year five, six students look after our preps at lunchtime.

help them develop their friendships and build an awareness of the school. We have 350 children here in St Agatha's and it is the most welcoming, beautiful place you would ever meet. All of the children play together regardless of year group, they all mix in together. [00:15:00] That's the example of deeds, not words.

I was talking to a student the other day who only just started a few weeks ago and I said, how are you finding it? what do you like about this school? And she said, Miss Moore, this school is so friendly. I just feel like I have so many friends here. That's deeds, not words.

That's it right there. And that's living it. That, that is living it and not just actions, not just a poster on the wall or, or

anything like that. And as I think as you, you've kind of, said, it has a lot to do with leadership. Okay. and we want our students to be student leaders.

Okay. And so many times we hear we, Hey, we want kids to lead, but then we put all the different roadblocks up for them. And really it gets to, well, this is what really what we wanted them to do. It's kind of like forcing somebody to pick the card that you want them to do or something like that. leadership is great, but giving these students the opportunities.

I know you talked a little bit about the Shark Tank motto

motto of bringing things in. What are some other ways that you create opportunities for the students to be leaders within [00:16:00] your school and to really kind of model this deeds, not words?

think another way we do this is through, we have a little program here at school, which is our Mediation Mates. So the oldest students at lunchtimes they help the younger students with playground issues rather than the students if, if there's an argument in a soccer game or handball or whatever rather than coming straight to the teacher.

We always encourage the children, see if you can sort it out yourselves first. If not, ask a mediation maid to help you. And so our older students will help talk through the problem and see if they can come up with a solution. And if there's still haven't been able to work that out, then of course, come to a teacher straight away.

That's one of the ways. Another way is our students here at St Agatha's, they lead assemblies The students themselves organise birthday certificates for the children who have birthdays each week, they hand them out, they run our prayer assemblies take [00:17:00] leadership roles in our, we had our swimming carnival on Friday, it was our year fives and sixes dressed up in coloured tutus and ribbons and, calling out the cheers and the war cries and it's just lovely and I kind of, I just let our students Lead how they wanna lead and through who they are as well.

Some children wanna lead more around that creative space, which I love. Other children are really into their sport or really into those aspects. Last year, our year fives. Our senior students, so our year five, sixes they wanted to organize some work for Catholic missions. So we have Socktober, which is around Catholic mission month.

We normally do a crazy sock day, bring in a gold coin and they say, Oh, we're sick of that Miss Moore. Can we do something else? Great. What do you want to do? And that was around the time of the Soccer World Cup in Australia. The Matildas, which is our women's soccer team were going really, really well.

So they decided to do a soccer shootout penalty shootout instead to raise awareness and [00:18:00] money. And then they did a Jersey day which was great. So that came from the students as well. And it's, they get so excited. I just love seeing where they're going to take this leadership as well.

And I think when they're the ones that are leading it, the buy in is much greater. I mean, just because that ownership is out there and, and that peer, I don't even want to use the words peer pressure because it's in a positive way. There's no pressure about it. It's just a matter of, hey, let's, let's all do this.

Let's go.

that's exactly right. And I find also, John. Sometimes when we're looking at leadership models as teachers or school leaders, we're often using something that maybe has worked for us in the past, or something we remember from school, or we're pulling from our own experiences, which of course we have great experiences, but it can sometimes be at the detriment of creativity.

We might not have thought of some of these ideas that these children come up with, and I just think we've gotta be open to that. You don't wanna have everything so locked down and so rigid [00:19:00] that there's no room for that beautiful flexibility, creativity that comes from the children. And there's nothing better than seeing the kids jumping up and down.

So excited because an idea that they came up with has really come to fruition and it's been successful.

And I think that's awesome opportunity there because when we say, well, this is the way we've always done it, and that's, that's the way it's got to be. getting closed minded. But even as adults, when we're able to collaborate with other school leaders, when we're able, even in my role here, I'm collaborating with school leaders all over the world, it's great to hear different perspectives, and hear how different people are doing things, and whether it be through our mastermind groups, people say, Hey, I've had that problem at my school, and this is how Hearing different perspectives really gives you that opportunity to say, Oh, okay.

Yeah, there is a different way of looking at this. And, and there is a different way that we can get to the solution that we want, want to do. and I think too, that, a crucial piece of this too, is obviously you have your philosophy on this. Your kids are bought in, but without that [00:20:00] faculty buy in, it's going to have limited success.

Now, I know that in any of our schools, we ask so much of our teachers nowadays. I mean, we ask so much, and they're spread very thin. So I can hear if you say, hey, we're going to do this assembly, or we're going to do this project, or we're going to do this. I'm losing instructional time, or I'm, I'm, this is taking time out of my class, and we had a, I don't know, a bad weather day the other day, and I already lost time with this class.

It's important that the instructional piece of things is there, but if we're creating these well rounded students that we're all seeking to do, how do we balance that within our school to make sure that your faculty's buy in is there, but also that we're making sure that they're involved in this process?

it's really difficult, John, and that's something that I'm still trying to work out to tell you the truth, because I'm incredibly protective of the school day. I do not have children going out for music lessons during their math class or anything like that. It's it's something that I. Constantly focused [00:21:00] on how can we get the most out of our instructional time.

So what we need to do and what we tend to do is look at what is happening during our school year, liturgical seasons different fundraising activities and leadership opportunities. And then how can we value add in our curriculum? We look at our general capabilities and of the Australian curriculum, particularly the personal and social capability of the Australian curriculum, which runs across a number of learning areas, great opportunity for English writing.

Team it with your religious education lesson, team it up with your geography lesson or your history lesson. There are ways that we can do this but I also look at ensuring that whatever we are doing is Really, I guess, value adding to our school. It's not an extra. It's woven into the fabric. Part of that is being really, really organized, making sure that we can see ahead and we can plan into that so we can make the most of these opportunities.

And then with [00:22:00] that also is really using those times like assembly time, play time because especially because a lot of these things are run by children. Well, children can use their time rather than. Using it as an excuse to get out of class, which I can see right through and that's not going to happen.

You don't need to be in Shark Tank to figure out that one, right?

Exactly. Even when the children have meetings with me, their meetings with me. I always have them booked usually five minutes before their playtime or at the end of their playtime and I will only give them five minutes. Reason for that is because I say your class time is you'll need to go straight back to class.

Absolutely.

I think that, you mentioned before, when giving the faculty those opportunities to collaborate, I think that's really important because when you can do things that are cross curricular, and seeing that our art class is tying into what's happening in our history class, which is tying into our religion class, And I remember a few years ago, we had a day that we gave teachers, and it was really just supposed to be a, I [00:23:00] don't want to say a play day, because that's not a, but it was like a chance to give them opportunities to collaborate to see who can come up with the best activity and what have we.

And the teachers that were together in this group came up with such a great activity. A couple months later, when they got to that section of the curriculum, they said, let's all do this together because we already practiced it once back during our work days, but it's just giving those teachers that opportunity to do that cross curricular type of a lesson.

Yeah, absolutely. You've got to look at that. Our curriculum is so crowded. We're all so busy. We need to make sure that every moment counts and every moment is that learning opportunity.

So in the future if we, we have a time machine that we go into the future in three years, okay? What does it look like? What does success look like? Or what does the future look like for St. Agatha's in three years with our social entrepreneurship with our students?

I think the future, well, first of all, the future looks very bright because I'm, I just think that what we're doing with our students here at St Agatha's and really building their confidence and [00:24:00] their understanding that they can make a positive difference in the world. I think that's just going to continue to filter through and it is a culture that we have here.

But I think the future would look like. Nearly not even having to ask permission to be able to go out of your way and help others for using the jewellery store example. So if it is the month of October, knowing those little girls who organised the the Breast Cancer Awareness Month jewellery store, they would have that running on their Etsy site or down the street at the local park or whatever it might be.

And then they might drop in a couple of business cards to me and say, Oh, Miss Moore, our jewellery store's going really well. Could we maybe hold a market day? We might even, as a whole school, have a market day, maybe once a term two times a year. Tie it in with things like our Christmas concert or meet the teacher night.

I can imagine our students having stores. Parents are coming in of the evening to go and meet their teacher. They might swing past the [00:25:00] market stall that the students are running to be able to pick up a few bits and pieces, maybe ready for Christmas or for someone's birthday. I can really imagine that happening.

imagine I will be hearing stories of these children all the way through and the differences that they're making.

And I think that giving them the key word is just giving the opportunity, the opportunity to be successful right there. And knowing that the end product might not be exactly what it was when we thought of it at the start, but in any

business, That's the flexible piece of things. That's the flexible way that we have to do things.

Yep. You've got to give it a go. And I think that that's the adult in us can obviously see the stumbling blocks and see the potential pitfalls. Whereas, children see opportunities, so children see creativity and we want to really harness that. So, being, being able to just.

let them go with it. And however that might turn out and whatever they might be [00:26:00] selling, you're just like, all right, there's a, look, there's a market for everything, isn't there? So it's always

Just go on Amazon, you'll see there's a market for everything. Well, and I think, too, the important thing is, that The kids are fearless with

that, that let's give it a try and that fear of all this isn't going to work or because we can find everything in the world wrong with with what it is, but it's that confidence to give them the little nudge to say you got this.

You can do this.

Absolutely. John, one of the big things if you do any reading and psychology talks about the link between mental health and. volunteering and how volunteering, giving service, looking after others, doing your part actually has huge benefits to mental health and wellbeing. So I think we look at children at the moment and, look at our society at the moment.

And there is there is that pandemic of epidemic of mental health concerns, anxiety and depression. If we [00:27:00] can do our part to go out of our way to serve others, to help others, it's in giving that we receive. And I see that our students just become better, stronger, more amazing human beings when they give service to others.

Well, I am looking forward to watching future seasons of Shark Tank and seeing some of the students from St. Agatha's on there pitching maybe some of the ideas that they brought to a marketplace in your school to, to the, to Amazon in the future. Well, Amri, I want to say Thank you so much for for your time today.

It is such a pleasure to talk with you and we're going to be watching those kids down at St. Agatha's to see all the successes that they have.

Amazing. Thank you so much, John. It's just been wonderful to talk with you today.

All right, have a great day now.

Yep, will do. [00:28:00]