The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

11 Dr. Julie Delaney
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. My name is John Mahalio, your host, founder and president of Elementary Advancement Solutions. Today, it's my honor to have with me Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. My name is John Mahalio, your host, founder and president of Elementary Advancement Solutions. Today, it's my honor to have with me Dr. Julie Delaney. She's the principal of St. Paul the Apostle Catholic School in Davenport, Iowa. St. Paul is a pre k 8 Catholic school with 460 students.

Her vocation has been as an educator in Catholic schools for 39 years. She spent 24 years as a classroom teacher and 18 years as a junior high science and religion teacher. She's currently in her 15th year as a pre k 8 Catholic school principal. During her career, she's not only been a classroom teacher, But also taught at the graduate level in Environmental Issues Instruction for the University of Northern Iowa and Upper Iowa University and the Undergraduate [00:01:00] Teacher Education Program at Upper Iowa University.

She received her Ph. D. in Educational Leadership. And higher education with her dissertation topic being Turnaround elementary school principals in rural Missouri. She loves her vocation as a Catholic school principal, and hopes to help other Catholic school educators develop successful students in their relationship with Jesus and in pursuing a life of learning to love and loving to learn.

Welcome to the Catholic school leaders podcast, Julie.

Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here and talk with you about this topic. It's something I'm very passionate about and something I've learned a lot about over the years in working with various pastors and working with different schools. It's key.

Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head on that one, that the most important partnership on a campus is on a successful Catholic school campus, is that between your pastor and your principal. And, and I've always said, if you show me a thriving Catholic school, I'm going to show you one [00:02:00] where the principal and the pastor not only collaborate, where they work together for the greater mission of the parish and school, and they're communicating on an ongoing basis.

So, tell us, start here, with what role do you see the pastor playing in the school? Many pastors are overly involved. Some are not. Where do you see that balance of a pastor being supportive of the school, but not micromanaging it? And what are some strategies that a principal can do to foster that partnership?

Wow. So when I said it's a big question, it's a loaded

a big question unpacked. We can spend 45 minutes on just

that, right?

on one question. So when I look at that relationship with the pastor, it is a fine line that not only you walk as a principal, but the pastor walks in being supportive and being involved, yet not micromanaging. And I know we've all, you If you've been a leader in Catholic schools for a while, you've worked with a variety of pastors, and you've probably had a little bit of both.

You know, some who [00:03:00] micromanage, some who, and some who are technically hands off. Like, it's your building, you run it I don't want to have anything to do with it, you just keep it going. So, You know, the important thing, first of all, is to develop that personal relationship from the standpoint that you have to communicate with your pastor and you know, the most beneficial relationships I've seen is where the pastor and the principal meet on a regular basis And the thing that I always like to back it up to is when you meet, prayer, praying together is so important because when you pray with somebody you see their vulnerabilities, you get to know them as a person, you get to know their concerns, you get to know kind of more about them.

And I think, The key is developing that type of a relationship so that you can pray together, so that you trust one another. It's building that trust thinking, you know, thinking through other places I've worked with, with principals and pastors, [00:04:00] or my own experience when you get a new pastor and you don't have that trust yet.

And so you have to build that. And once you build the trust, things get better. But regular meetings are extremely important in that you pray in those meetings. Prayer opens up a lot. So that's always my first advice to people is, is pray. Pray with your pastor. And so as you have those meetings, you know, have an agenda to start with.

You know, that here's the things we're going to cover. And you can set that agenda together to begin with. And, you know, you might find like, it's nice to start off with weekly meetings, but you might find that that can spread out as the trust develops. The other thing I kind of want to put into this is it's, the pastor is really important, but it's important that the pastor sees you as a leader in the parish.

Like it's not just he's in charge of the parish and you're in charge of the school, but it's meshed together. And as the school. Principal, as the school leader, you're also a leader [00:05:00] in the parish and the pastor needs to see you in that capacity, that you care about the parish that you're on board that you are a member, or, you know, like, I really encourage, if you're a principal, Well, at a parish school that you become a member there important for the pastor to see you involved, important for your families to see you involved, important for the parishioners to see that you have buy in, that you've got a stake in the, in the game of the whole picture.

So, and it's helping also the pastor to see that you understand the role. of the school in the parish. So the parish is this umbrella that oversees all kinds, you have the school, you have religious education, you have other outreach ministries, you've got, you know, so many things that a parish encompasses.

And the school is underneath the mission of the parish. And I think if the pastor sees that you see that you are under the mission of the parish that helps a lot. And that mission being evangelization. That your [00:06:00] goal, main goal, is to evangelize children and their families, and I think that helps to build that trust.

Like, you're on the same team, you're working on the same thing, going in the same direction. So, I mean, those are like, I think, like the big overarching things, right

yeah, and, and, and, and I think that Oftentimes on weekends and I always tell people that when, when you're a Catholic school principal, you're on the clock 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Okay. Whether you're at a restaurant, whether you're at a movie, whether you're at church, whatever the case might be, you're a Catholic school principal.

And so, and oftentimes on the weekends, it's like, ah, I just want to get away from the community for a couple of days, just so that I can have a little bit of downtime and not be asked questions, things like that. But unfortunately, that's not the reality that that we live because we are choosing a vocation and I and I do use it as a vocation because I think as being a Catholic school principal is more than just a job.

It is a vocation. It is a [00:07:00] calling. But our vocation is that we're we need to be visible and we need to be accessible. Now there's a time and a place. Obviously, if you're having dinner with your family is not the time to talk about what's going on a math class or things like that. But I do think that it's something that we all have to just accept as as principals.

I would agree, I think that, I would agree, it is a vocation, and it really helps to be visible. But the other part to it, too, is when you are visible, you Also see parents, students, your pastor in a different light, and it's important to see that whole picture. And I found over the years, parents really, you know, don't bring up school when I see them in church.

The kids are excited. You know, I can hear them across the pews. Mom, there's my Principal, and they're excited, just like when they see you in the grocery store, they don't think you grocery shop, but they get excited, they go to the aisle, there's my principal, so that's important, but I think with the pastor, it's important for them to [00:08:00] see that you are just as dedicated to that parish as they are, and that, you know, that builds trust.

and I love that you, you know, you talked about the weekly meetings because I think that setting aside that time is so critical. You know, somebody once said to me, you can tell what's important by where we put our time and where we put our money. And by taking that time each week or every other week or whatever it might be to just say, it's just going to be the two of us talking to make sure that, I'm giving you that time that you need.

And, you know, and I can tell you from, from some of my experiences you know, one of my pastors, the first question he would always ask each week when we would get together is, how are you doing? And it just meant the world because as we know, sometimes as principals, We're having a rough week. We're having a rough time with something maybe personal, maybe professional, whatever the case might be.

And it's just great to have that collaboration that you can just kind of say, this is what I'm working toward. And, and, and this is what's going on in my [00:09:00] life, or this is what's happening at the school. And I could really use that support, but also that maybe they're having some struggles as the pastor of the parish and kind of having that person that they are partnering with in that mission is so helpful.

Right, because often our priests, they're, you know, they're alone a lot, you know, they don't have they don't have family, they're, they're moving around, they're having to develop relationships each time they go to a new parish, so it's important for them to, to be able to establish professional relationships and relationships too that are caring where they have somebody that they can also, you know, in a way, vent with or, you know, so that's, you know, oftentimes you get that back and forth support of each other.

But I always think with that pastor relationship, you know, then if I have concerns about something happening in the school and I'm keeping him abreast of it. Boy, it's nice for him to know ahead instead of get a phone call. So part of it is giving them a heads up and what's going [00:10:00] on but it's also supporting them, supporting them in their work as a pastor and, and having somebody that they can go to but when I think about, you know, that, that relationship that you have with your pastor you know, development, that is important, but that also can bleed and should bleed over into the whole parish staff.

because I look at the pastors being the head of it all, and they're going to set the tone but then it should filter down into the rest of the parish staff and school staff, you know, all being one and that we're all working together. So, and I, you know, and I look at if you have a pastor who is not not cooperative in those meetings or, you know, I go back to pray about it.

Say prayers that their heart opens, but sometimes it's just, I had a pastor one time that was difficult in that direction. And it was kind of like, I'm going to come meet with, you know, I would set the time and I'd show up and I had to have the agenda. So if you have a pastor who is a little resistant.

You're going to [00:11:00] have to take the lead on it, have an agenda, don't keep them long, maybe it's to start with a 10 15 minute meeting, just enough to touch base. The other purpose in that relationship is We were kind of talking. Sometimes pastors see a school as a drain on the parish. It's taking resources away.

I don't have time to go see the kids. It's, they see it as a drain. So part of your job as the leader in the school is to show them that, you know, we that you're a help. You're not a drain on the parish. And the more communication you have, the better off you are there. So, talking about the faith formation going on in the school and asking for their help with that, inviting them.

In, inviting the pastor in to do the beginning of the year, there's a blessing that our pastor does over the doors and with the epiphany. So to do that, invite him to come in and do the epiphany blessing invite him to come in and, for vocations, little things, not, not big invite him to come in and start the [00:12:00] beginning of the school year with a blessing for the classrooms.

But I think you have to, if you have a pastor who is resistant, you have to show them how you are supporting the mission. Sometimes it's getting them into the school. I have one pastor I physically took by the arm and he came in my house and said, Let's go see the school, and he came along with me, but sometimes you have to take that lead, but I think if we can work with them and show how we are supporting their mission even with our new kids, like, the state of Iowa has just adopted ESAs, which allow kids who weren't in public schools School to be able or weren't in Catholic schools, to be able to come in and have their tuition paid through state funding.

So we've gotten an influx of non-Catholics. The beauty of that is it's a chance for evangelization. Our pastor is seeing. Yep. Our pastor is seeing that we have, we have five children. and their families coming into the church at Easter this year. [00:13:00] So once they start to see, oh my goodness, you are evangelizing, that really helps that relationship.

they're starting to see a value in what you do. They're not seeing you as a drain, but as supporting the mission.

100%.

And it is an investment in the school. It's an investment in the school. And I will say this, and I'm going to talk specifically to our pastors out there right now, that, that I recognize the busy schedules that you have, and you are being pulled in 100 different directions, and that was just before 9 o'clock, or maybe you had to go to the hospital at 2 o'clock in the morning, and we all get that.

We all get that. If you want to create a buzz. If you want to create a buzz at, at, at home, I guarantee you if you take 15 minutes a week and just visit a couple of classrooms and just stop by or just walk down in the cafeteria, I guarantee you when, when the kids get home and their parents say, what happened at school today?

They'll say, I saw Father so and so. That'll be the first thing out of their mouth [00:14:00] because they're excited to see you and they're excited And I know Julie sometimes our pastor will say well I really don't know what to say to the kids Especially the little ones because you never know what's gonna come out of their mouth and it's okay if you don't Just being there and just seeing you is so impactful on the school community.

correct. I mean, even to come out at dismissal and be out with the buses be, walk through recess. so many things are what we've done over the years, too, is invited the pastor to come in one afternoon a month, and he rotates through the classes and teaches like a 15 minute little lesson on whatever topic he wants.

It might be reading a book to the kids. It's he's brought in like frankincense to show the kids what frankincense is. Just little lessons that are great in building the relationships with the kids. And here's what I've seen. The more our pastor is in the building the more the children are comfortable with him the more families are comfortable with him.

We've [00:15:00] seen the church our Sunday mass attendance increase, because they

feel related. The kids are like, they want to go see Father Bruce. They want to go see Father Tony, they have a relationship and so that makes Sunday Mass more valid, more important to them, because they know the priest and they're not afraid of him.

They're not intimidated by him. So, There are so many things that that relationship that you start with the principal filters into everything, and it's sometimes giving the pastor some ideas of here's what you can do, it's it's that give and take that back and forth conversation.

One of the things I used to do was when I would meet with, with pastors, I would say, okay, at the beginning of the year or beginning of the month, whatever the case would be, give them, give them a list. Okay, because again, they're pulled in a hundred different directions. And I used to say, here's three different top three, three different classifications.

These are the events right here that if you're not at, It's gonna [00:16:00] get noticed. Okay, where was Father so and so? Why wasn't he here? You got these things you you got to make time for these events here in the middle Maybe that B category are things that nobody's expecting you to be at but if you're seen at it It's like wow and father so and so came Okay, and then there's the third categories where listen if you're there, it's probably not and if you're not there But if you have a personal interest in these things, this is something you might want to consider attending.

If your school has a major fundraising event, or a gala, or a big event, and you're not there, it's noticed, okay? That's just the way it's going to be. And so, there are things, and I think as principals, we need to make sure that we're supporting our pastors to set them up for success so that they don't have those moments of, well, why didn't you tell me I was supposed to be at this?

I would agree. And you know, as you're talking about that, John, the other thing I look at is, we're often trying to pull the priest into. Our [00:17:00] world.

Come over to school.

Come to this fundraiser. But the other thing we have to remember is we have to go the other way. And if, and the pastor seeing that effort on your part, it's, it's great example, but it also shows your investment in the parish.

You know, and that's so important. important, you know, and I know I've already hit on it, but it's really important that your pastor sees that you are invested in the parish, because that means the school is, because you're the leader of it, but what parish things do you need to be at? Do you need to be at that parish leadership meeting?

Do you need to be at at family faith nights, and Not all of them, but can you be there? If you have a soup supper on Wednesdays and Lent, does your face need to be at that soup supper? the other things that you can do, you know, to be a lector, it's really important for the kids and everybody to see you as a leader in the church, Eucharistic minister, things that often we are anyway as leaders in Catholic schools, but the more visible you are [00:18:00] for the pastor, you know, that again goes a long way.

It's

to the give and take and forth and yes it is we have a street down the, in between our church and our school and I always thought that we had a really good relationship. A new pastor came in and he said, wow, that street is something. It's like a barrier and I'm like, really? And, and it was interesting to hear his perspective.

because it was often one way coming toward the school. So we had to work to make the bridge going back to the church, So I often think when you're thinking about this, don't think about just the pastor. Think about how are, how is the school bridging it over back to the parish, you know. And so now we laugh

yeah, and I'm betting when things are going really well, that road looks very narrow, and it's like, oh, it's only that far. But when things might not be on [00:19:00] the same page, that road looks like it might as well be an eight lane highway to try to get across.

That's right.

And I think you touched on it too, that the principal playing a life, playing a role in the life of the parish is huge.

And I think sometimes either principals don't want to play a role in the parish level, maybe they aren't welcome to play a role at the parish level, or sometimes they're overly asked to play a role at the parish level. But I think that there has to be that balance right there and that principals have to accept that that's part of your vocation as being the principal of a Catholic school.

And something we haven't touched on because not everybody has the beauty and simplicity of being a single parish school. Some schools have, you know, four

parishes. And, and then it becomes really difficult because as a principal, you can't meet with all four of those pastors. on a weekly basis. It's impossible.

So in those cases, when I've worked [00:20:00] with schools and in that situation, I always tell them you do the best you can to reach out, and if maybe you can't personally, personally be everywhere. But do you have a teacher who is a member at one of the parishes that can be your liaison and have that relationship because we can only do so much.

I know there was a principal I worked with who had four parishes and she took turns going to the various parishes. God bless her, you know.

Yes, absolutely.

And she did a great job of, I mean, that was one of her gifts, was pulling those parishes together to support that school, and she was visible in all of those parishes, and it was something that she made a definite effort at.

She was at the parishes for Mass on Sunday. She was she kind of rotated through their social events. You know,

But there was intentionality there.

you have to be intentional. It's not going to happen on its own. And I think it's much more difficult when [00:21:00] you have when you're a regional school or, you know, you're you have several feeding into you.

So you have to be definitely Absolutely. More intentional, and you really have to figure out then those personalities of those different pastors and how to work with them. So, but I always say do what you can. If you can get over, if you can go to them, especially in that case, because they're, you're not on their campus.

If you can get away to them once, you know,

Once a quarter, once a, once a, you know, whatever the case may be. And I think one of the ways that I found as, as a, as a principal of a school who did have several parishes feed into us start with, you know, we would have a weekly school mass and, and just scheduled out to say, okay the five or six different priests, we're going, we'd love to invite each of you to come celebrate mass.

With the students, and, and it's a great point because if you know Father Tony's gonna be here this week, and Father Phil's gonna be here next week, and Father Dean's gonna be here next week, and, you know, whatever the case might be, you're giving [00:22:00] those pastors and those priests the opportunity, and I, and I guess with this one, I'm gonna say not just pastors, but the priests, because I recognize some of our parishes have more than one priest station there, You know, we wanna make sure that, that the kids are seeing these, these men and having that opportunity and, and what better place to start than on our VAEs.

It's a comfort place for everybody especially our, our, our priests on that one. So that, that was a way that we would do that, and it was a great doorway into allowing those people to become a bigger part of our, of our school community.

Right. Yeah. And that's, that is a wonderful way. And again, the same thing that you do with your pastor in one on one, invite them in to teach a lesson. If you've got four of them, they don't have to

come in as often. You know, I just think anytime you can get them in the door is, is so important. But then the other thing is again, reaching out to them.

We've got to go both ways. They've got to see it as a back and forth, as a two way street. That just goes. Miles in, in developing that relationship.

And I think when as, [00:23:00] as students in the schools, there's so many different ways that we can serve our parish communities. You know, and that's such a, an easy opportunity for us because there's always outreach opportunities. There's always service opportunities that our students can be not only participating in, but active and leading.

At the church level, that really is showing our parish community that investment in the schools is worthwhile. And that's an easy one for us to do as principals. It's an easy one. Okay, it takes a little effort to get it set up and organized and stuff like that, but I guarantee you our kids are going to have a big takeaway from it.

It's going to have a huge impact on our parish community. And when that happens, it's just a win win for everybody.

right. One of my favorite events to do is like a, we, like a Thanksgiving dinner for the seniors in the parish. And whether it's one parish or four, this works, you know, we host a, a lunch for seniors in the parish. Father comes to that, so he gets to meet with, see parishioners, eat lunch with them.[00:24:00]

The kids are there serving the dinner. They're so excited to pour coffee. My goodness, you know, no coffee cup ever goes empty,

but it's, it's that outreach. And again, it, it builds bridges with the whole parish, because I think often priests. have parishioners talking in their ear about the school, and this gives, you know, a sense of goodwill.

Like, we're giving back, we don't just take, we give back.

You're creating something for people to talk about.

right.

You're creating an opportunity for the, for the, for the parishioners to go. We went to this Thanksgiving event and guess who was serving the meal? And the kids were there in their uniforms and it's a great takeaway. Because maybe they had kids that went to the school, but they've graduated and they haven't really been seeing much of what's happening at the school in the last 10 years or 15 years on a personal level, but now it's like, wow, guess what I got to see today?

And it leaves just a great feeling in their hearts.

Yep, [00:25:00] it's, it's one of my favorite events of the year and been around here long enough and anybody who's been around those now seniors, I taught their kids, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a go home moment. It's so fun. But, you know, that just, To build that goodwill, and the more goodwill you build in the parish, honestly, that helps with your relationship with the pastor.

Because again, they're not seeing you as a drain. They're seeing you as building up that community, that, you know, the body of Christ within the parish.

and I think the more involved we can be, the more invested people are going to be in what our mission is as a school community, which, which is can only win because when our school is successful, our parish will be successful and vice versa. I mean, it's it works. So on the campus. Now, I know one of the things that a lot of a lot, a lot of schools out there and a lot of parishes out there experience.

And you mentioned it before, there's a lot of different ministries within a parish community. And sometimes there can be this, well that's [00:26:00] ours, and that's yours, mentality. As opposed to a true partnership. Now this can divide, it can happen a lot of different things. It can happen with, you know, faith formations, or youth partnerships, or youth groups, or any on campus ministry that's going on outside the school.

How do you forge successful partnerships between those ministries and the principal?

Good question. You know, that's a loaded one. That's something, you know what, it takes time. to build the relationship so that you lose, like we call it, I call it silos, that you're operating in silos, and you want to get the walls of those silos down. And it's, okay, so it goes back to the pastor, like, do you have the relationship with him?

Then it filters down to the parish staff level. And being a part of the parish staff, And seeing that the school is, and again, it's time away from, you know, you get [00:27:00] pulled out of the school for those parish staff meetings, but they are key. You have to be seen as an equal member of that parish staff that evangelizes.

And we look at everything under that same lens. Like what are we all doing together to move forward? So it's forging that relationship. And that's a whole other big

yeah, could have a whole other podcast on that someday,

That's right. A whole new thing on how do you forge that relationship. It's, you know, simple things you do, you know, like if you don't you have, you know, to have a calendar meeting where everybody sits down together and talks about what are we doing.

And, and you have the heads of your various ministries and you like what we what we've talked about a lot in. In my artwork here is stacking hands. How do we stack hands on things? So we have now a family faith formation night on that night. It's run by our faith formation director, [00:28:00] but we've moved our school mass off of that day.

So that families will come to mass that night and do and we promote it through the school so we work, but and we also work together to plan it, you know, like I have input on what's happened. So

There's equal investment in the

there's right and when we look at Like a beginning of the year social, we make sure that that's not in conflict with anything in the parish, and we make sure that we're consulting parish staff on it, that we're consulting like the Knights of Columbus, what can you do to help us with it?

What can Altar and Rosary do to help us with it? So it's intentionally looking at what events do we have, Each different organization and how do we work together to make that event a parish event? So, the school may organize, be the originator of something, but we're looking to how can Knights of Columbus help?

How can Altar [00:29:00] and Rosary help? What about Faith Formation? When Faith Formation does something, how can, various people help? We'll do it. Or even some service projects that we do. everybody takes a turn at it. This month it's school, next month it's Alton Rosary, then it's Knights of Columbus.

So, it's we look at how do we develop synergy? How do we find ways to have synergy so we're not competing for things, so that we're all looking in the same direction? So, to build this parish up and to build this community it, it takes time and effort and it, and again, it's developing trust.

Right.

about it.

That's right. And it doesn't happen overnight. I mean, it's baby steps, you know, so you have to be patient if this is where you want to go, but it's doable, but it's, it's, again, starting with the pastor's leadership, because I can't, as a principal, tell people, Parish staff what to do. That comes from the pastor.

[00:30:00] So the pastor, you've got, he, you know, needs to have that vision. Also, sometimes we've learned the pastor may not have the vision, but if you know what you need to get accomplished, who on your parish staff Who else is that informal leader? Who is that one that maybe the pastor needs to hear from? And to work with that person.

So is there somebody else that you need to be communicating with to get the vision going?

And I guarantee you if you, if you say to your pastor, you know, listen, I'm working with Julie on this project so that we can do this. Are you good with that? Sometimes it's like, yes, done, done and done. Because we know that not only, Is this happening? And it's something that is supporting the greater mission of the parish, but that there's two or three different ministries on our campus working together in collaboration on that.

And I think that's what we always talk about that kind of that alignment to integration piece of things. That's where you know you've got that going. [00:31:00] Right there.

Right. And, and, you know, and the beauty of it is you touched on that. If you can have a plan and go to the pastor and say, this is what we'd like to do. He didn't have to do anything.

Now, you took some weight off his shoulders. You took something off of his plate. He doesn't have to He referee between groups.

You know, You have your groups working together that makes the pastor's life a lot easier.

And just on a, on a, on a upper level too, just in, in generic terminology, you mentioned before about being involved with different aspects of things. You know, I think some of the easiest things in the world to do, are when you have a back to school night, and maybe sometimes you, you address the, your, your whole school community, let your youth director come over and, and say a quick word to promote what it is that they're doing, okay?

And likewise, when your youth director is having a parent meeting with everybody, Invite your principal to come over for, for, for, to say a quick hello, because you may have [00:32:00] folks there that are interested in the other, but just have never been given that avenue to explore it. And so I think we talk about those partnerships being active and alive on the campus.

That's just a simple inroad right there that by opening those opportunities for success to the other ministry, you're just going to grow your campus as a whole.

Right? That's right. And that's just kind of become, it becomes natural after a while. You know, the parish staff is in on our kindergarten roundup, in on our Preschool Roundup, talking about sacraments, making sure your children are baptized. When new families come into the parish, if they have children, they give them school things.

If I have new families come into the school who aren't parishioners here or aren't Catholic, I share with them, how do you, how do you join our parish? How do, you know, if you're interested On the road, here's who, it becomes a very natural thing after time. And, and then you think, how did we function before?

it it [00:33:00] makes everybody's life easier.

100%. And I think to take that first step, you just have to say, okay, let's put our guard down because if you're in a parish right now where this is happening, like this works, and there's such a partnership between the school and parish, you're probably listening to this going, really? There's parishes out there where this happens?

If you're in a parish or a school where this is not working well, you have to, we used to say with our advancement efforts, we used to say the best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today, okay? You have to take that first step to make this relationship and this partnership better.

And why not start with you? Why not start with because nobody likes to work in a toxic work environment. Nobody. And I guarantee you when that happens, the kids don't win. The teachers don't win, the families don't win, the parishioners don't win. So it's got to start somewhere to improve those partnerships between parish and school life.

I would agree. I, you know, and I look at just even down to your mission statement, you know, [00:34:00] like a simple, simple yet not so simple. You know, when you look at your school mission statement, does it reflect it the parish, or is it even like, for example, what I like to suggest to people is your parish has a mission statement.

How do you take that parish mission statement and then you further it? You keep that parish mission statement as part of yours and now add on to the component of educating students, the whole, the whole student. You know, there are some simple things. that you can do that go a long way to speak very, you know, to, to speak very highly of your commitment or that, you know, have a big impact.

And, and everything we do goes back to mission.

Exactly, exactly. In a parish, you know, we talked a little bit about you know, the, the ours versus theirs kind of thing. We know that as parishioners, some of our parishioners choose to send their kids to a Catholic school, some don't. It could be a personal choice, it [00:35:00] could be a financial choice, it could be a whole lot of reasons why they've decided to do that, and that's okay.

But at times I've also seen people who don't want to promote the school. for fear of almost getting backlash from those who chose not to send their kids there. Okay. And, and how do we, you know, how does your school community promote the school? And, and I guess what's the reaction from the parishioners?

Like, how do you, how do you how do you cross that bridge in terms of, of making inroads with parishioners who chose not to send their kids to the school.

Yeah. You know, that's interesting because when I started at the school long time ago there was that divide and I started. out as a Christian here first, and I taught religious ed. Then I became a teacher here and taught religion, and I taught the same group of kids, same age level. So I taught eighth grade religious ed and eighth grade in the school.

So I worked to develop relationships with the children. You know, that was easy for one [00:36:00] person as a, it doesn't always happen that way, but over time, that's something we have worked on, is not being, it not being RE versus school, but how do we make it? So what we talk about here, and it has been, I mean, I still have to be intentional about saying to people, these are St.

Paul the Apostle children. They aren't school children. They aren't RE children. They are St. Paul the Apostle children, all of them. , so things we've done over the years, one of them is sacramental prep. In a Catholic school, I would say, of course, we teach sacramental prep.

That's, that's what we do. You know, in second grade, of course, that's the curriculum. In junior high, of course, we're teaching about confirmation, but the sacramental prep, actual sacramental prep is pulled out of the school. It's done separately with all of the children. So it's not, it's parish kids. It's not school versus RE.

We invite you to join us. all [00:37:00] families to things. So when we have a back to school block party, everybody's invited. When we do a blessing of the backpacks, everybody does it. We invite, during recruiting season, we invite families, you know, please come check us out. And I have to say, we are probably 90% of our children in the parish in the school.

We have a very, it's very tilted, slanted to be toward the school. But then you have these, this really small group that's not in the school, you know. So how do we, we always want to make sure that they're feeling included in part of the, you know, that they're, they're not overrun by school kids. So part of it is Family Faith Night.

It's intentionally setting up faith formation. involves everybody. It's setting up events that involve everyone and that everyone is invited. And part of it is on, honestly, me as the [00:38:00] principal, the leader. If I'm involved in a meeting and, and people are introducing and it's, it's always interesting when a parent says, well, I have a fourth grader and a second grader and they're not in the school.

And I always say, You know what? That's great. You know, it's okay.

You know, you're doing, you're doing what's best. You feel is best for your children. Like, Catholic school isn't for everybody and that's okay. I mean, they look at me like, I have to tell her my kids aren't there. It's okay. Like you're doing what you think is best for your children, and that's important, and it's okay, we're all St.

Paul people, it doesn't matter.

And that's when you bring up the symmetry piece of things, the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. That right there is where it all feeds into, because if we start with that in mind we're going to just grow stronger as a parish and school community right there. And when one of them has success, they both will.

right, well, and, you know, our youth group it is really nice, our junior high youth group pulls all kids, you know, it's [00:39:00] religious ed kids, it's school kids. Kids, it's everybody. And it's, I think so much of it is getting the kids to know each other and have a relationship because then parents kind of follow along.

So the more opportunities you can pull kids together, the better off we are.

110%. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a question here about a touchy topic. Sometimes it's an uncomfortable topic for, for, for school leaders to have to talk about. And that's the topic of money. Okay. A parish obviously needs the financial support of its parishioners in order to, to not only survive, but to thrive.

So does a school. Nothing is going to divide a community faster than money, unfortunately. I, I always find that, that when people feel like the school is getting too much of the parish resources, or not enough of the parish resources that then there becomes, you're talking about Silos and Turf Wars right there, a great book by Patrick Lencioni.

Nothing will create more silos and turf [00:40:00] wars than unfortunately financial. A lot of folks will just see the school as a money pit for the parish and not an investment. And I've also seen pastors who make a tremendous investment in the school and say that's the future of Catholic education over there.

I'm supporting that building wholeheartedly. How do you navigate these class five rapids?

it's, it's one of those things again, takes time, you have to communicate. So, the biggest thing is for people, you know, if people see that what they're investing their money in is paying off. Yeah. Are they getting return on their dollar? They're okay with it. So it's really important that you communicate.

Again, it starts with the pastor. Does the pastor feel that the investment in the school is worthwhile? Is the money that's going there, do they feel that they're getting a bang bang for their buck? Are they seeing students in mass on Sunday? Are they seeing event? Are [00:41:00] they seeing kids coming into the church?

You know, are they seeing it as a source of evangelization? Do they see that you are tied in to fulfilling the mission of the church? That's the first thing is because the pastor is going to speak to people who are naysayers. You know, they're going to get that phone call. And if they're on board with you that helps.

The other thing that I think is really important is communicating to your parishioners what's happening in the school. Like if they never see what's going on, they, they will see you as just a money pit, but they need to see you giving back. So honestly, a reason we do a Thanksgiving senior lunch is those people don't have children in the school, but here, here's, here's the product.

You know, these children are polite. They're You know, leading you in prayer, they're serving you your parish bulletin, boy, you should have something every week in your parish bulletin, good news about the school,

and if

And not just [00:42:00] information, like you've got to actually promote the mission. Not just

like, Hey,

so we, right, so it's, it's something about, it really is great if you can have teachers put in something about what's happening with faith formation. A service project they did. The kids sang the rosary. Any little pictures help? People don't read a lot. So pictures with bullet points. If you have every week something from the school in the bulletin, those people who are regulars at church are going to see that.

But anytime you can get the kids you know, taking up gifts on a Sunday Mass being greeters, what can you do to, to see, for people to see the, the students in action invite them into your school Masses when you have a school rosary, invite the parish to come, when we have our nativity pageant.

We invite the parish to come. So you just need to have parishioners see what's happening and communicate it. When, if your parish does a newsletter a quarterly [00:43:00] newsletter or whatever, make sure that there is an article from you about what's happening in the school, how you're making a difference.

Not just Factual stuff. I mean, it's honestly, it's great if you have great test scores to promote that because people want, oh, they're doing a good job. The kids are successful, but more than the academics, it's, are we raising children to have a relationship with Jesus? Are

we evangelizing? And so it's, it's, communicating with the parish because if they see that, then not only are they not going to complain about their money coming to the school, but my goodness, grandparents, you know, will say you need to send your, you need to send the kids to the school, you know, neighbors, it, it helps everything that we're talking about.

Not only helps the parish, but it helps the school. And it's going to, like we had talked about, if you have a strong parish school relationship, Your enrollment grows. Your Sunday attendance at Mass grows. I mean, it's a win [00:44:00] win. There's no downside to this, but so much of it boils down to communication, telling your story as a school, when you do your annual report, get that in everybody's hands in the parish, get it in the bulletin, you know, have it as a bulletin stuffer.

If your parish is sending out weekly push emails, get your stuff in the emails. anything that you can do, and, and I'll be honest, I have, we have an awesome parish secretary. And she like automatically just pull stuff from my weekly post and puts it in, you know, I don't even have to do it anymore.

I mean, that's how I would say how seamless the relationship can become that it's just part of her thought is like, I got to put this in about the school.

say, Jeannie, hey, I need to put this in. She's like, I've already got it. So that's where you want the relationship to get to with your parish secretary.

there's the alignment integration piece right there. There, there it is right there that, that we're so in sync of what we're doing, and we're all on the same page [00:45:00] in terms of the mission that it just, it just flows, and I think, too, one opportunity, and not that you want to recreate the bulletin, but I'm guessing that it's always a great thing, maybe on a monthly basis, or if you can do it as a weekly basis, but maybe on a monthly or quarterly or whatever, I To have the parish contribute maybe to your school newsletter to have that cross promotion as well.

And again, we don't, we recognize that a lot of parish bulletins are 3, 4, 5, 10 pages long. So we can't just recreate that in the newsletter or nobody will read it or they'll say we already read this. But, but promoting the parish on your social media accounts, or on your newsletters, or things like that.

But again, more than just, hey, we, we need this. Hey, we want this. More telling that story to get people invested in what you're doing as, as a whole community.

Yeah. And one thing. You know, they've learned it makes it easier because it's a lot to remember as a principal. I need to pull this. I need to pull that, if you've got somebody over at the parish who does social media, [00:46:00] they have access to my social media. I have access to their social media. We can post on each other's.

anything you can do websites, are your websites tied together? so if I go to St. Paul Parish website, I can click on go to the school. If I'm on the school website, I can click and go to the parish and they have the same look. It looks like I haven't left. Those are things that just help to show the cohesiveness that they're not separate.

But boy, it also makes it a lot easier. In terms of promoting what's going on in both places, it's then I don't have to stop and think about posting or, you know, having, you know, getting the post, can you send me the post so I can put it up? Oh, no, they can just do it.

It's already done. It's already done.

Yeah,

So out there right now you may have a, a, a principal listening to this. You may have a pastor listening to this. You might have, I don't know. There's somebody that's like, this sounds really good. And, and I really want to get better at this. Or I really, what do you say to [00:47:00] the principal?

who really just feels like his pastor is disinterested in the school and wants to improve that relationship and vice versa for the pastor who feels that their principal is very disinterested in what's happening at the parish level. Where do we start? to mend those, those roads, to mend those relationships.

think it will, depending on this, the, how big the chasm is and the separation of it. But to me, it starts with a one to one invitation to, and maybe not a meeting, but you know, I'd like to get together with you, you know, you have to, I don't know, most principals, when the pastor calls, you're like, what did I do

wrong?

wrong?

know, what's wrong,

what's wrong. Now I no longer, yeah, I no longer have that with my pastor because we have a good relationship. But if it's the pastor, you know, in a not, maybe it's walking over to the principal's office and saying, hey, do [00:48:00] you have a few minutes? If you're the principal walking over to the pastor.

office and, and poking your head in, Hey, do you have some time? We could talk, but you have to start. And I think it's with a face to face conversation and it's saying, Hey, I'd really like to work on our communication or work on getting, if it's coming from the school side, I'd really like to work with you.

How can we get the school more integrated with the parish? And if you're the pastor, how can we work together, you know, to make sure that we're helping the school to be a stronger part of the parish? You know, I know pastors, either way, it's kind of, hard

to

get the right word in, but, but you do, but you have to start with that face to face conversation, not an email, because we lose tone.

And even a phone call can be kind of cold. You know, this has got to be a personal relationship, even though we're talking about work. It still has to have that personal feel. And, and I will say too, that what [00:49:00] goes a long way too is you know, if you're having gatherings, invite each other. Priests invite the, the principal over to things and the principal invite the priest over, you know.

But, but I think it starts with that face to face conversation. In a non threatening way that I'd like to improve this. How can we make this better? You know, maybe it's fledging along saying, Hey, you know, we're doing good, but I think we can do better.

Yeah, and you gotta start somewhere. Every thousand mile walk begins with one step.

yeah. And if you're worried about that, pray first, you know,

Prayer can really lift up a lot of things because that's, there's a common, commonality to that when we start with prayer.

And even for your own courage, say some prayers first and get that, you know, if there's some other people in the parish office or in the school side, you know, have them pray with you. If you've got that I don't know. I just think about transformation that I've seen. Often it begins with prayer and people don't even [00:50:00] know there's prayer happening in the background.

it's a sticky relationship, if it's a tough one, you know, I think that's where you have to start and, and praying that God opens their heart to what you want to talk about. But yeah, but it's gotta be the one to one. it's the best way, best way to get anything accomplished.

And I think that as as principals, we need to be proud of the parish that we're affiliated with,

and as principals, as pastors and priests, I hope that you're proud of the school that you're affiliated with. And so when we are talking in public, or when we do have those events that we're inviting to, Invite your pastor to say a quick word.

Invite the, the priest that has come to say a quick word to everybody, just to, because people may not know that person very well, or they may be new, or they may be whatever, but also if you're inviting your principal to attend something maybe give them a second to say a quick hello to introduce themselves, because people, I'm oftentimes surprised when you, when you go to a parent, they, I didn't realize we had a [00:51:00] school here.

Oh, I thought our schooling went to this grade, or whatever the case might be. And you've opened up a whole new avenue for people. But there's nothing worse when you invite your principal to something and everybody else gets to talk and the principal is just sitting there. You know, it's like, boy, you just sent a loud message without saying anything.

Let me ask this question, and it's just kind of a different topic, because I know sometimes that different, different parishioners, rates, or things like that, and, and does your school do like a different if they're a member of the parish, they get a different rate than, or is it just one, one size fits all?

there is a, an active Krishna rate And then either a non Catholic or not active parishioner, we're also in a unique situation in a regional system, even though I'm a parish school, we're a regionalized system that has several parishes in it, so if you're a member of any of our system parishes, you get parishioner rate.

And then there's a rate for everybody else.

So now, if you're out there as a parent listening to this, and you want to get that, We recognize that [00:52:00] not everybody can give the big bucks, but there's ways to be involved with your parish to show that you're involved. And listen, I'm contributing what I can and things, and I think it's sometimes when we only put it as a dollar figure and tie a lower tuition rate to a dollar figure alone people feel that pressure.

What are some ways you can encourage your schools to encourage participation in the parishes to show that involvement

So, you know, it's when we, we have volunteer hours that you have to have as a parent, as a school, or as a family.

So we say,

Okay.

we track them. And, and I know not everybody does that, but it's just something that we've found is helpful. And So, anything that happens in the parish counts for the school. If it's a calendar, you know, we say any calendar event.

The only thing we don't count are ministries, because it's a ministry. You know, like, [00:53:00] Eucharistic minister, lecturing, those are ministries. So we don't count ministries, but if you're serving at the soup supper, that counts. If you're we have a retreat that we do annually, a big retreat. If you're Helping with the retreat, that counts.

If, things kind of go back and forth, both sides of the street, any kind of volunteering you do, that counts as your volunteer hours. But it also counts as you looking as you being an active parishioner. so if you're doing something for the school, because we are all one happy family, if you're coaching for the school, well, that's volunteer to help show that you're an active parishioner.

So it's that looking at where there's not a line dividing between the two. So if you're helping out one, you're helping out the other.

And I'm guessing too that when those conversations happen and, and the pastor may say, Hey, the, the, the, the Jones family here talk to me about, Oh my gosh, they're so involved with what's going on here at the school. They're doing this, this, this. Oh, okay. And I'm guessing the number of families you may have to have that conversation with is, is [00:54:00] probably much less by doing it that way.

well, and the other thing too is I don't know, it seems like over time as the school and the parish, and I would say this not just for our case, but you know, it's easiest to speak to what you live the more involved the parish and school, the more connected they've gotten, you see people at church, they're going to Mass because they're connected.

They. No father, they want to be there and hear what he has to say in his homily. They also understand the importance of mass and the other part to it too is the giving then goes up, you know, just at the UC, the, the parish, the more they understand the mission of school, the parish supports the school, the more the families.

See the parish helping their children through faith formation through just that sense of community. Giving goes up. In fact, we just had a conversation about that. Our giving is the highest this year it's been. I think it's [00:55:00] the relationship, you know, and it's conversations that you have throughout that we're all one and we have to support each other.

You know, and I know it's not true just to my parish and school. I mean, I think that's the universal thing. The more connected you are, the more you both benefit and the less you have to have those conversations about, Ooh, you're really not active, you know, and it looks different. It's not just a dollar amount.

It's a whole lot more. I'm, I'm present. I'm involved.

last question here for you we talked a little bit about supporting each other back and forth, and, and I know I mentioned before about maybe sometimes priests may be a little bit reluctant to, to support the schools too loudly because there's parishioners who don't, aren't affiliated, and we talked a little bit about that.

What are some ways that you think that a parish can support the enrollment growth and tuition assistance at the school level? Because, obviously, to run our schools, there is a dollar figure that we want to be able to pay our faculty. [00:56:00] We need to be able to pay, and, and For folks out there that aren't involved with school spoiler alert, about 85 to 90 percent of your budget is probably covering salaries and benefits.

And not many of our teachers are buying, Ferraris. Okay. So, our budgets are modest and there's not a lot of. Play in, in them. So I think that that opportunity to support enrollment growth and tuition assistance for more students to be able to attend a Catholic school is, is critical for our parishes to, to do.

What are some areas or some ways that you think a parish can support enrollment growth or tuition assistance?

But enrollment growth, I think so much of it is goes back to the partnership and the, even a lot of it is the, just the perspective that the parish school is, its mission is evangelization. And so, if our parishes see that we are a very important mission of the parish, they're going to, if the school is promoted both explicitly, [00:57:00] like, you know, it's announcements from the pulpits after communion that, you know, this week is kindergarten.

Round up, you know, here's the times it's like in your face like, hey, it's re enrollment time. And it's also, I see it within the culture of the parish that people talk about the school and the the good experience their children are having. And then that draws other parishioners in. But the enrollment piece is, it's, it's, it's.

Allowing us to put things in the bulletin. It's allowing, you know, allowing maybe a conversation, like during Catholic Schools Week, allowing either the principal or students or a teacher or somebody to, board member, to get up and talk about the school and promote it. And, and also, kind of letting people know, you know, the more our enrollment goes up, That brings in dollars and your subsidy is going to go down because if I have 20 kids in a classroom or I have 25 kids in the classroom, my cost to educate doesn't [00:58:00] change.

Or if it does, it's minimal because I have to buy another desk, another chair, and another book. But I have the same amount of personnel. So, enrollment increasing actually helps with us to lower the subsidy. for the school. Because I'm, you know, really our buckets of money are tuition subsidy,

and then fundraising.

Those are

our three,

those, that's our three legs to the

stool. So, if I can get tuition higher, I can lower subsidy. If I can get my advancement higher, I can lower subsidy. But tuition, you know, getting that enrollment up and getting to capacity is a great strategy. and everybody needs to be on board, your finance committee, your parish council, your pastor, you know, and the more you get those people behind you, the better off you are.

And honestly, I'm working with the finance committee, any of you who do, you And if you're working with the Parish Finance Committee, that's what they want to see. They want to see your tuition go up so they can [00:59:00] decrease their subsidy to put it towards other missions of the parish. You know, and if they know you understand that, it's a win.

In terms of advancement and, you know, getting those scholarships, again, it's promoting planned giving. And talking about, like, letting people know because there is often misconception that only the rich kids are in the Catholic school. So it's educating families about how many of our students are on scholarship or need scholarship.

How many of our kids are free and reduced lunch? Like that we want in, in our, what we say here, it's just become what we say is we want any child who wants to come to the school to be able to be here. It's a parish school, and when people say, Oh, it's a private school. No, It's a Catholic school.

Catholic means universal. We're a parish school. So if any child in this parish wants to be in the school, we will find a way to help you do it. [01:00:00] So we just let that be known. I mean, that's kind of just, it's my mantra all the time when I talk with people about it. And then it's letting, so that's when those other events that you do and that other you know, when you do advancement, you're always, you know, It plays building relationships, and you're always talking with people, and it's letting people know that we have a need here.

We have kids who want to come but can't afford it, so if you would ever like to donate towards a scholarship you know,

a student to go there

Yeah, there's all kinds of things you can do, but you've got to get the scholarship. Word out,

you know,

them opportunities.

yes, yes, and, and have events that raise money for it. You know, I think about, often there's maybe a golf outing that funds scholarships or whatever, but again, when you think advancement, it's not a fundraiser, it's long term.

So you're thinking planned giving. And building those relationships. Yep.

Yep. And I think sometimes too that the perception is as well, there's only so [01:01:00] much money to go around and so if the parish level promotes somebody sponsoring a student's tuition, that's going to be less that's going to come into the parish. It's like, no, no, actually quite the contrary.

Quite the contrary on that. You're going to do better as a parish with the support of these folks doing this for this family. Because it's just a win for everybody right there. And I think that's where that us versus you mentality, those walls need to be broken down. It's something that you're doing a tremendous job of out there in Iowa.

I want to say thank you so much to, to Julie for her time today and, and wonderful knowledge on this. I know that at the time we're recording this, you're going to be presenting at the NCEA conference next week on this very topic.

And so, if you're, hopefully for those folks that get to attend your session, it'll be something that they, they truly take a lot away from for sure.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I just keep trying to share the knowledge because, you know, it doesn't do any good to hold it to yourself

you want every school, you know, I want every school to [01:02:00] thrive and to do well. principles to feel good about what they're doing and develop those relationships. So yeah, I'm always happy to help.

Well, thank you so much, Julie. I appreciate your time and wish you nothing but the best as you finish the school year.

Well, thank you, Johnny. Appreciate it. And same to you, you know,

Thank you so much.

I love, I love all that you've got going on.

Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

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