The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

14 Barb Flowers
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[00:00:00] this is our podcast on Principal Efficacy with Barbara Flowers. So thank you all for your work on editing this for the two of us. Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. My name is John Mahalio, President and Founder of Elementary Advancement Solutions. The goal of this podcast is to connect Catholic school leaders from across the world to grow Catholic education. Visit us at www. elementaryadvancement. com to see how we can help make your advancement seem elementary.

Today we're going to talk about a very important topic of self efficacy for principals. My guest today is Barb Flowers. Barb currently serves as a principal in Kent, Ohio. She received her BA or bachelor's degree, in early childhood and teaching from Kent State, as well as her master's in curriculum instruction, and her doctorate in K 12 leadership, also from Kent State.

She has six years of experience in teaching, eight years in educational leadership, including roles as a principal and assistant principal. But beyond her experience in [00:01:00] education, she's a certified life coach. with a core mission to support educators by focusing on their well being and improving their mindset, therefore boosting their career performance.

Her passion lies in supporting individuals who struggle with recognizing their worth, feeling inadequate despite their extensive experiences and achievements. Barbara, welcome to the podcast!

Thank you, John. I'm excited to be here and thanks for having me.

Absolutely. It's great to have you here. And so you're, we're going to talk about this, this topic of leadership efficacy today. And I guess, first and foremost, what is that? And why is it so important for our educational leaders in our Catholic schools?

Yeah, so first of all, it comes from the term of self efficacy and your self efficacy is your ability to believe in yourself when you're trying to achieve a certain goal or complete a task or just deal with a certain situation. And so, When we're talking about leadership efficacy, we're talking about how [00:02:00] you feel and what your beliefs are in certain areas of leadership.

So it could be, you know, communication, it could be organization and systems, whatever that is in leadership that you're working to achieve or completing, and whether or not you feel you can be successful in those situations.

And I think, obviously, over the last, you know, In the last five years, we have seen the role of a principal change dramatically from where it was, even in, even in 2019 prior to March 13th, when we, when we took two weeks off, as everybody says, to slow the spread everything has changed a, a great deal in terms of, principal efficacy.

How have you seen educational leadership kind of adapt to that situation? Where do you see it moving in the future on this topic?

Yeah, I think the tricky part about the principal's role is there's so many areas that we have to know. and be knowledgeable about and be good at that. It can make principals have a lot [00:03:00] of self doubt and it can make them feel not good enough and have low self efficacy because there's just so much to do.

And, you know, we can rely on teacher leaders and experts in that area. But at the end of the day, we have to have an idea of what we're trying to lead in and, you know, have a strong knowledge base in that as well. And there's just so many things in so many different areas that it is really hard to stay on top of everything.

And it can be hard to stay on top of everything too when I think principals are questioned a lot more than they used to be just after COVID. A lot of things have changed, I think, with the state of schools and education. At first, after COVID, I felt like everybody appreciated educators so much. You know, they thought everything we were doing was wonderful.

We need teachers. We can't teach our own kids. But then as time has gone on, I feel like there's been this whole other shift.

the other way.

Yeah, almost in the opposite direction where [00:04:00] everything we do is just under a microscope. And so we have to be really intentional with All of the decisions we make as a principal and have good reasons for everything that we do so that we are able to back up everything we do when a parent questions us or a staff member.

And that requires having high self efficacy that requires us trusting in our leadership abilities and trusting in our decision making skills, which can be really tough when you're being questioned a lot.

And I think that one of the skills, one of the things that the principals need to recognize, and I'm sure those that are in a leadership role you don't have to know everything about everything. And I used to always say this is, is that, that I, I don't know everything about everything, but if you know what you don't know, then you better know who knows it.

And you better get them on your team immediately so that you can have somebody who's a great resource. If, if your strength is not fundraising, then you better find somebody who's a good [00:05:00] fundraiser. If your strength is not curriculum, then you better find somebody who's great at curriculum. And I think that one of the things that our leaders can do is to delegate and to find people and surround themselves with people who are good, which could be a great skill for better efficacy.

Yeah, and I think it comes to acknowledging those areas that maybe you're not as well versed in or that other people can help you in I think is really important. That's the first step in really becoming better and gaining that self efficacy is just acknowledging and being even vulnerable with others to share, Hey, this is a weakness for me, or this is something I don't know as much about, so can you help me with this?

And I think recognizing the opportunities that we as leaders. have to grow in areas that maybe are not our strength. What that will then do is to trickle down to our teachers to make them more vulnerable. You know, one of the things that I used to always encourage people is when I come to observe you, don't show [00:06:00] me the A1 lesson that you've done for 15 years.

Let's try something different. Maybe something that, that you say, Hey, I want to try this. I'm not really used to this. Can you come in and observe me during this to give some honest feedback? That's when we're going to see growth.

Yeah, and I think that it does, it takes the principle being vulnerable and sharing that and showing that they don't know everything. But I also think if you have low self efficacy, if you're a person who has that low self efficacy and you try to compensate in certain ways and you don't show that vulnerability or you don't acknowledge that it is just an area that you have self doubt in or you don't feel as confident in, And that's okay.

But when we're trying to be perfect and in that perfectionist mindset, I think we compensate for that. And then our teachers and people who follow us can see that, you know, they

can see right through that.

Yeah.

they know. They know before we've even acknowledged it.

Right. Right. They know our deficits

for [00:07:00] sure. a hundred, percent. So, so I think then when, when, you know, we're, I hate to say we're the last ones to know, but sometimes, you know, we feel like we're the last one to know. If we can be proactive in that, in saying, listen, these are things I'm working on you know, even to the point where, you know, I would even tell, hey, this is what my goals are this year as a principal because, you know, each year we may be evaluated by district or diocese or whatever.

These are my goals this year. This is what I'm working toward. It gives maybe your faculty that encouragement to say, okay, yeah, if they're going to be vulnerable, maybe I can be a little more vulnerable in these areas as well.

Yeah. And I think also just when you show that this is a building that we focus on growth and it's okay not to know everything and together, we're not going to know everything, but If I'm struggling in an area or, If I don't know as much, I'm going to learn and just continue to grow in that area instead of having this.

It's the idea of a fixed and a growth mindset, right? Like you can have that growth mindset that I might not be good at this certain thing, but I do have the ability to get [00:08:00] better.

Yeah, and I think that's where just that professional development and that ongoing professional development for not only our teachers, but I think sometimes as leaders, we focus so much on making everybody around us better. That we can neglect ourselves, whether it be our professional development, whether it be our health, whether it be our taking care of ourselves, whatever it might be that as principals and as leaders within our schools, that sometimes we, we kind of put our oxygen masks on last rather than putting them on first.

And I heard a great speaker one time say, when you don't put your oxygen mask on first, number one, you can't help others, but number two, you become an obstacle for others. And so that's why it's so important to take care of yourself.

Yeah, that's such a great point. And I think Within taking care of yourself as principals, we also think about how we develop others professionally and we create professional development plans for our teachers. But I don't think we do that for ourselves enough in a systematic way where we're [00:09:00] focusing on the same type of professional development, because I know for me as a new principal, I would see something and be like, Oh, that sounds cool.

I should go to that professional development on RTI. I should go to a professional development on PBIS. And I wasn't focusing on one thing that I knew that I needed to grow in. And it was just me kind of all over the place. And I think sometimes that stresses you out more. And then it It messes with your mindset when it comes to self efficacy because you feel like, well, I don't know anything about PBIS and I don't know anything about RTI because you're going to all these different professional developments, but you're not really diving in and learning anything in detail to get better.

And I think one of the things I, I hear often and I've heard it over the past 15 years from principals, they feel bad spending professional development money on themselves. They feel like that, that should be focused on our teachers. And I said, No, no, you can invest in yourself, too, because when you invest in yourself, [00:10:00] you're going to make your teachers better.

When your teachers are better, you have a stronger school. Now, if you, if you took, you know, your whole professional development budget and, and did a conference in Hawaii every two months, I think that would be a problem. But, it's okay to invest in yourself to make yourself a more effective leader to then be able to have that trickle down to your teachers.

Yeah, I think one of the best things that happened to me as a new principal, and it was really hard to hear, but I am such a people pleaser, and my superintendent pointed out to me that I have a hard time with tough conversations, you know, and that I needed to get better in that area, and so I hired a coach, and I invested in a mastermind, and that was so helpful because I could focus on that one area that I knew that he thought I needed improvement.

And once he said I needed improvement, then I, I became aware. And I started to think about, you know, every conversation I had and how am I kind of dodging that tough [00:11:00] conversation and avoiding it. And so it helped me confront that issue and really get. Better. So I think having coaching or mentoring or masterminds that you can join can also be a really effective way to help with whatever you're trying to achieve in whatever area you feel you lack self efficacy in your leadership.

What do you see as the biggest thing that you feel holds principals back when it comes principal efficacy?

I think one of the biggest things I see is comparison. It's so easy to compare yourself to other principals and start to feel not good enough in certain areas. You listen to what they're doing in their buildings and it sounds amazing. Or you listen to a podcast and you're like, Oh, that person is so good.

That principal is amazing, you know, on that podcast. But I think Day, it's just, we all have our deficits, even whoever you're listening [00:12:00] to or reading from, but it comes down to just being aware of what those are and focusing on certain things. Because I, I focus so much on comparing myself with others that I would get wrapped up in that, instead of thinking about the things that I'm doing well in my building and what's going well.

I see this with teachers too, right? We focus on the problems and not what we're doing well. And so that's a shift I've really tried to make. in my career.

Yeah, and I think that keeping up with the Joneses, keeping up with the the school next door or the leader next door when we try to do that, you know, one of the things I used to do as a principal, somebody would say, Hey, how are you guys doing this? How is your school doing this? And I would say, well, I'll tell you how we're doing it.

And I remember I would go, well, aren't you afraid they're gonna steal that idea? And it's like, we're doing it because we believe in it. If you just try to steal the idea and you don't believe in it, It'll probably last you about two months. Okay, you have to believe in it. And so therefore, I think you can [00:13:00] take ideas from other people.

I think you can hear what other people are doing to help give you some more tools in your toolbox. But if you just try to duplicate that school down the street, it's probably going to lead to a lot of frustration on your part.

Yeah. And one thing I've really encouraged my staff to do, and I started doing and having my assistant do, is at the end of the day, we think of three wins. So what's three things that went well and are building that day so that, and then what's three things that are going to go well tomorrow? We're already predicting that things are going to go well.

So we're going to have three wins tomorrow. So I just like thinking about that idea of gratitude and things going well in your own building versus looking at every other building like the grass is greener on the other side because we all deal with challenging situations and challenges with staff and there is no perfect.

Building perfect principal, perfect school district, right? Everybody has challenges and I think keeping that in mind is really important and just focusing on where you are and growing from [00:14:00] that position and keeping that in perspective.

Yeah, I think that's a, that's a great point right there because you can find wins in your building and sometimes they're bigger than others. Okay not, not in football, not every, not every plays a touchdown, but it might be enough to get you a first down or get you closer to a first down, whatever the case might be.

But I always, I told a principal recently that I was talking with, I said, you know, he was having some struggles this week, I said, you know, when things are bad, they're probably not as bad as you think. But on the flip side of that, when things are, you think things are going really good, they're probably not as, so you always have to be ready for that, that next challenge that's coming your way.

And so I think there's just those constant opportunities to find wins. And I think that's where knowing what the, the vision and the mission of your school is, is so important, because if that's your true north, and that's what you're always working toward, you can find small wins that are, that are moving you towards that end goal.

Yeah, and sometimes even a small win is having a conversation with [00:15:00] a teacher who can be difficult, you know, building those relationships and that report. It can be the smallest things, but just documenting that and being grateful for those things that happen because we get caught up in it. We have to make progress.

We have to keep growing the building and teachers do this too. So I have this conversation with my teachers, but. We need to just step back because we need to enjoy the process of growth. You know, otherwise we're always just trying to do the next new thing instead of just enjoying where we're at.

Yeah, and I know you're a big James Clear fan, and, and in, in his Atomic Habits, and, and if you haven't read that book, I would suggest that book to anybody out there. No matter what industry you are in wh whether you're a leader or whether you're a co That book right there is Atomic Habits is so good because it says just improve 1 percent every day.

And the difference that makes at the end of a year is astronomical right there. So I think just finding those little wins to build upon. [00:16:00] And improving your school by 1 percent each day pays off in spades in the long run.

I agree.

So you mentioned classroom teachers and, and one of the things we've seen a lot over the past five years is, burnout from not only our teachers, but our principals.

You know, we're seeing a lot of high numbers of, turnover with teachers. And I think at first it was, well, what's wrong with our school that we're losing a couple of teachers? And then that just snowballed and snowballed. And everybody was seeing that. You know, it might be long work hours, it might be parent demands, it might be lower salaries, it might be not feeling appreciated, any variety of reasons.

What are you seeing as it pertains to principals and leadership burnout? And what do you see as things we can do to kind of ease this burden? Let's start with principals first, then we can talk about teacher burnout as well.

Yeah, so I, I actually work with a lot of teachers on burnout and it happened because I, I dealt with burnout myself, but as a principal I think it happens for me. It happened because I had a lot going on in my personal life. Not bad [00:17:00] things, but just. A lot of things, a lot of changes. I had recently gotten remarried and in that I also had more demands on me at work.

The other, we have two elementary buildings and the other principal was out for a surgery for eight weeks. And so I lost my assistant. And so I was just, you know, I had double the workload basically. And during that period of time, I wasn't doing all the things I now know, where it's setting boundaries and taking that time for yourself and turning it off at night.

And I was just constantly working because I felt like I always had so much to do instead of just leaving the list at work. I was, I was working all the time and it just got to a point where one day, you know, I felt fine. I felt like I was doing everything okay. I was managing it. My superintendent kept asking if I needed help and I'm like, I'm fine.

I'm fine. And then what happens is one day when you're not expecting it, it just creeps up on you because you've not put these systems in place [00:18:00] to take care of yourself. I just had a panic attack driving to work and couldn't go to work. So I had to get all that figured out for myself. And so now that's why I'm a huge advocate of having systems in place before you get to that point.

Because what happens is teachers and principals, they think they're fine. Like, Oh, I enjoy staying after work till seven o'clock, or it's not a big deal if people are emailing me and calling me at night, I can handle that. You know, my family's used to that and you think it's okay. until one day it's not.

And so it's really important that we set up those systems ahead of time. And one of the biggest things I tell people is you have to set boundaries. And so one of the biggest boundaries I set for myself that has changed a lot is I took email off my phone. So when I get home from work, I do not check my email and teachers know I don't check my email.

So I say, if it's important, you can text me, you know, but I'm not checking my email because I used to check my email and [00:19:00] I. see that message from the angry parent. And then I'm thinking about that and ruminating on that all evening and it's messing up the time that I have with my family and I'm just ready to go to work the next day to handle that situation versus taking that time for myself.

So that has probably been the number one game changer for me. Mm

And usually that email comes at about nine o'clock, right as you're getting everybody well, you know, for bed and trying to settle in and everything like that. And then that's on your mind for, for the rest of the night. And you're, and you're anticipating that conversation the next day. And you know, I, I think that one of the things, Principals, spoiler alert, okay?

Because I think you just hit a very important topic. You will never have everything done on your to do list. Okay? It will never happen. So, and it's okay to leave, you know, and that's where I think you're prioritizing. You know, hey, this is something I got to get done today. This is something I got to get done this week.

And this is something that's got to be done before the month ends or [00:20:00] whatever the case might be. But if we try to fit everything into one day, I think we're all guilty of that. You know, ah, I, if I could just get this piece done, it'll set me up for success tomorrow. And then that takes an extra two hours.

And the next thing you know, you're getting home at 6 30, seven o'clock, instead of the time you were supposed to be home for dinner and such like that, that weighs on you, that, that wears you down as a leader and doesn't allow you to come in the next day with your best on.

Yeah. And I think another thing that's really shifted for me is I have learned to do a lot of mindset work and changing my thinking. And so it used to be if a teacher said something to me, you know, they were upset or whatever, it really bothered me. And now I can really compartmentalize like, okay, that's their problem.

I, you know, and, and sometimes I take that and it's good feedback for me, but I used to take everything so personally. And it comes with that self efficacy too, that I just got into a place where it's like, I trust my leadership skills and abilities, and I'm going to change my thinking about [00:21:00] it, that it, their thoughts are their thoughts about it.

And I don't have to think what they think. And I don't have to let, because one thing I coach on is that your thoughts create your emotions, which then create the actions that you take. And so I've, thought about this a lot and changed my thinking that if I come in with a positive thought and I'm not letting teachers dictate what that thought is, that's going to lead to how I think about it and what my emotions are and then how I act.

So I've really gotten that under control too, and that has helped a lot with my own self efficacy and with just leading in a way that I don't feel like I'm going to get burnt out.

And when it comes to teacher conversations, I, I, I had a principal when I was serving as an assistant principal many years ago. And she used to say, you take it seriously, but you don't take it personally.

Okay. And, and, and that was one of the best pieces of advice I could have ever heard because we tend as leaders to take things so personally and, and it's like, you take it [00:22:00] seriously, but you can't take it personally.

And when you have that mindset, and I recognize too, that we are personally invested in our jobs. So I'm not saying to, to, to, to not be personally invested in our job. But when there's a complaint, when there's a topic that's a struggle for someone, we take it seriously, but we're not going to take it personally.

Yeah, I think that's great advice because that is, I think, a huge part of self efficacy. When you have low self efficacy, you take everything very personally because you just don't have that strong belief in your abilities where you can just stand up and say, Hey, this is what it is. This is what I think it should be because you know that that's the right thing and you have that confidence and that self efficacy in whatever you're working on.

I asked you a few minutes ago about the biggest thing that you think holds principals back on this subject. What are some of the characteristics or maybe some of the things that principals that you've worked with who [00:23:00] do this very well, that they share?

Yeah, so, one of the principals I worked with was, My principal, when I was teaching, he was so good at just, he had strong self efficacy. You could just tell from how he carried himself and his experiences, but I think his biggest thing was he just, he prioritized family, you know? So he had those strong boundaries at school and he was at school, but nobody dared to call him at home because we knew that he left everything at school, but he always came from a From a place where he never seemed stressed out about things or like things were a big deal, he, you know, and that helped calm us, I think, as teachers, but I also think that it, it just helped to keep everything low key versus sometimes I think we can make a bigger deal out of things than they need to be.

And so if you have that If you get really excited about something or stressed about something and you share that with your staff, I [00:24:00] think that that shows and that brings that level of stress up for everybody else. So I think just having that where this is work, we can handle it, whatever comes our way, we're here from eight to four, we work hard when we're here, but we have those strong boundaries, I think is really helpful to have that because Because he had that personality, it helped us have that personality as teachers, where we felt strong about having our own boundaries of time to, and to put our family first.

when we see leaders reaction to a problem. I think whether you're a coach, whether you're a principal, whether you're a teacher, what, no matter what it is, when the person we look to for leadership is in panic, then I think it tends to have everybody else in panic as well. Okay. And I think, I'm thinking back to like the Wizard of Oz when the wizard was like, everybody remain calm, all is well, even though he knew it wasn't all well, but it's like, Hey, we're, we're, we're all good here.

Just, just go back home. You know, when, when everybody kind of is looking to just have that person ease them, just to kind of say, Okay, we're okay. [00:25:00] We're going to be okay through this.

Yeah, and the other thing I would say that I saw from a leader that just blew my mind is, I was stressed out about the situation we were dealing with in the district, and It was my superintendent. He got an email about it, and we were talking about the situation. Then he said, Okay, and this was Friday afternoon, and he just was like, Okay, we'll handle it on Monday.

And I was kind of like, Oh my gosh, you know, we're just handling it on Monday. And it was so good for me to see because he had no thoughts about it. He had no worries about what was going to happen with the situation. It, I knew it wasn't going to impact his weekend. Like he shut off his computer and was like, I'll email them back on Monday and then left.

And I thought that is such a good perspective to have. And that's why he's been in leadership for so long in education, because he has realized. to compartmentalize and it's not a big deal and he's not stressed about it. He doesn't have a thought [00:26:00] about it. He just handles the situation as it is and says, Hey, I can handle that on Monday.

It'll still be there and it's not a big deal. It'll be handled.

And I think there's a big difference between, you know, and, and I think this is part of principal efficacy here in this, is knowing when to kind of calm the crowds, it's going to be okay. And when it's time to acknowledge, okay, yeah, this is a problem. We, we have to, we have to tackle this head on. Because I think if every time that we, you know, I gave the Wizard of Oz example a few minutes ago, if everything is always, it's all good, calm down, and people know it's not all good.

then people can lose, lose faith in that leadership. And so there is that time to kind of say, Hey, we're going to be okay. This is how we're going to get through this. And okay. We're not gonna panic, but yeah, we do acknowledge that we have something that we need to deal with here.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

me ask this question because I think it's really important to, you [00:27:00] just talked about that, that superintendent who was able to compartmentalize, and there's a skill to this, there's a skill to this, of being able to compartmentalize, but still acknowledging to the person that I care about this topic.

This is an important topic here, but we're gonna deal with it on Monday because we're, this is how it has to be. And so just thoughts on that perspective right there, because if you don't have the confidence of your, your folks that are, are, are working under you, then it can be seen as just, oh, they don't care.

This is, I went and talked to them about this, and they could have cared less about this, as opposed to, no, no, this is serious, we're going to deal with this on, on, on Monday, or whatever the case might be.

I love that where you're saying to just communicate that this is what we're doing and it's okay. I think having that. clear communication of the situation will be there on Monday. And, you know, I think this is important, but this is not the time to deal with the situation. We're getting ready [00:28:00] to leave for the weekend.

It can wait. And I have to have this conversation with teachers a lot because, and it's really smart. They bring situations to me like, I don't know if I need to tell you right away. Is this important? Is it not important? And that's where I can kind of guide them of this is a really important situation.

I'm glad you brought it to me, but we can handle it tomorrow when we get here first thing. So I think having that communication about it is really helpful as well.

Yeah, making a lot of deposits into the bank. So that way when that time for a withdrawal comes that it's there. So, lots of deposits. So, at the time we're recording this a lot of schools in the United States are getting ready to enter their last nine weeks of the school year. Or for our friends in Australia, the second quarter of the school year.

What do you think our principals can do to help finish the year strong? to set the table for next year as it as it pertains to this topic.

Well, I personally love the fourth nine weeks to take a lot of time for [00:29:00] reflection. So we have a building leadership team, and I know there's other districts and schools that have instructional leadership teams, and it looks a little bit different everywhere, but just having a team of people that you can kind of reflect on your goals and what you've worked on that year, And look at how much progress you've made.

It's a great time to celebrate those wins. And then look at where you want to go next year. It's good to start planning what you want next year to look like. So you can start thinking about your professional development, you know, what you need to be doing to make next year a success. So now is kind of that perfect reflection time with the team.

And, and I think, you know, Taking that time to really look for those strengths and the weaknesses of where you can improve is really going to help you move forward and set next year up for success.

And I'm a big advocate of the school leadership teams as well. How many folks serve on your leadership team?

So we have one person from each grade level, and we're a K 5 building, and then we also have a [00:30:00] special ed representative, we have a specialist, so like our computer teacher, and we also have one classified staff member, so my secretary is on the team as well, and our school counselor, and then me.

my assistant principal. So it's, it's a pretty big team, but we have a great mix of personalities too. And we talk about this a lot. We're all very different on that team. I have some teachers who have no problem telling me what they think, which is really helpful because they don't agree with me all the time.

You know, they, they're not difficult all the time, but they, there are times they don't agree with me and they will let me know. And I think that that's Really helpful for moving the building forward because they point out a lot of things that maybe I didn't think about, or I don't know that's happening behind the scenes that teachers know.

And I think if you have a leadership team where 100 percent of the people agree with 100 percent of the decisions you're making behind closed doors, either they're not being honest with you, or you're not making any [00:31:00] decisions that are worth a lick. And so I think it's to have folks in the room that are going to Kind of have to tell you sometimes that, hey, this is, this is probably not, let's rethink this one a little bit.

And you still may make the decision that, that you intended to do, but it's just good to hear that differing perspective so that you know the pushback that you may get.

Yeah. And I think too, you know, I put a lot of thought into this, that having that diverse perspective helps when we're trying to rule out an initiative, because They think like people who aren't going to agree with the initiative, which helps because if everybody on the team agreed, we'd think things would roll out just great and then they wouldn't.

So just having that perspective of, no, this is where teachers are going to be upset. This is what they're not going to like, and how do we deal with that and navigate that is really helpful.

Well, this has been a great conversation, Barb. I can't thank you enough for your time this morning, and I wish you the, nothing but the best on the end of a school [00:32:00] year and a wonderful summer ahead.

Well, thank you. I appreciate you having me on today.

All right.

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