The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

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Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast, where we discuss leadership in Catholic education. I'm John Mahalio, your host, and as always, this podcast is dedicated to enhancing Catholic education and connecting Catholic school leaders

well, today's an exciting day here on the Catholic School Leaders Podcast because my guest today is Dr. Karen Dudek Brennan. She is the founder and operator of Dr. Karen LLC, a company that's focused on empowering therapists and educators to design interventions that support language. Literacy and Executive Functioning.

So, a great guest. I think you're really going to enjoy this interview. Really will give you a lot of insights whether you are a principal, a parent, or a classroom teacher, all about executive functioning. So, I'll tell you a little bit more about Dr. Karen here in just a few moments.

Well, if this is the first time you're enjoying the Catholic School Leaders podcast, let me first and foremost say welcome. And if this is not your first time listening to this podcast, thanks [00:01:00] so much for coming back. Hope you're finding this episode and many others beneficial. I encourage you to check out our library of podcasts with Catholic school leaders literally from all over the world on a number of topics that I know will be helpful to you each week I like to stop and just take a moment at the beginning of our episode to do a quick prayer So if you would join me at this time In just a quick prayer in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Amen Heavenly Father. Thank you for this opportunity to come together today as your children To talk with Dr. Karen Dudek Brannon about executive functioning and ways that we can help our students. May our conversation today give your name honor, praise, and glory through our work and our vocation as Catholic school leaders.

We pray it will bring your light, love, and mission to our listeners and to the world. We ask this through your Son, Jesus Christ, Amen. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen.

So our topic today is going to [00:02:00] be centered around executive functioning. Executive functioning for our students in the classroom. It's a really great interview that I know. You are going to just take a lot of information from get your notepad or your notebook or Whatever you take notes on because there is so much good content and so much information In this podcast that you are gonna definitely want to have something ready to write it down something else is a great resource for you as well while you're getting that notebook while you're getting that Pen paper, whatever it is that you're getting a couple things for you.

Number one As always, if you enjoy this podcast, if you like it if you are enjoying it, you feel like it's something that others would benefit from, take just a quick three seconds real quick. Three seconds is all we're asking. Go down in that little review box. Hit the five stars there. Give us a good review.

That would mean so much because it helps us to reach other Catholic school leaders just like you. If you have 30 seconds instead of just three, if you have 30 [00:03:00] seconds to drop a quick comment in there leave a great review to help us expand that reach to, other Catholic school leaders across the world.

I'd be so grateful to you. And if this episode or any of our other episodes was good. If you feel it would be something that would be beneficial, please, sharing is caring. Feel free to pass this along to another Catholic school leader in your network or pass any of our episodes along. That's the only way we're gonna grow as leaders is to share our resources and to help one another out.

So don't be afraid to leave a comment, leave a star, and share this with others that you feel would find it beneficial. Now, the other thing I want to just mention to you is I am a firm believer in my 15 years as a Catholic school leader, as a principal, that in all my time, I have found that there are six things, six keys that your Catholic school needs to really be fired on all cylinders.

And I put together a quick guide for you to look at. to really give you some conversation starters with some [00:04:00] questions for your leadership team at your school. You can get that resource for free, no charge, absolutely free, www. elementaryadvancement. com forward slash keys, K E Y S. So www.

elementaryadvancement. com forward slash keys give you the keys to a successful catholic school today. Yours absolutely free. Pop on there, get that guide, and get ready to start having some really engaging and great questions with your team. Well, today it's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Karen Dudek Brannon as my guest today on the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. As I mentioned before, she is the founder, owner, and operator of Dr.

Karen LLC. She has a doctorate in special education and director of special education and assistive technology credentials from Illinois State University, as well as a master's and bachelor's from Illinois State University in speech language [00:05:00] pathology. She spent 14 years in the school systems. and has held various roles in leadership, higher education, teaching, and mentoring clinicians.

She is the host of the DeFacto Leaders podcast, where she shares evidence based practices, her own experiences, and guest interviews on topics related to education and health care reform. She currently holds a management role with the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services. Dr. Karen, it is great to see you.

Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders podcast.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah. So you, I know you and I have chatted quite a bit over the last couple of weeks and really gotten to know a little bit about each other and about each other's work. And I think it's fascinating what you do. Tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your background and how you have gotten to this point today.

Yeah. So I will try to give the CliffsNotes version of that, but so I started as a school speech pathologist in the public schools. I was there for about 14 years and [00:06:00] was doing all kinds of side projects at the time, was working on my doctorate in special ed and my director of special ed credential, which meant I was sometimes doing some adjunct work, supervising student teachers And teaching courses and doing research and all of those kinds of academic things, but still doing some clinical supervision and student teaching supervision.

And then during that time, I was also debating what the next steps were. And I thought that I wanted to be either a special ed director or work at a university. And be a professor and do research, but I was also kind of dabbling with the idea of starting a private practice. And so that's a lot of different directions you can be going at once.

And as I was doing some exploring, one thing that I hadn't really considered was the idea of teaching and just providing my own courses because I always really enjoyed the teaching aspect. And so what I ended up doing was while I was still in the schools, I [00:07:00] started to build some programs for SLPs and teach them some of the things that I wished that I would have known when I was a new clinician starting in the schools.

A lot of people may not know this if they're not in the discipline, but when it comes to supporting language and literacy, that's a big part of our role as speech pathologists, because we have the background in language, which is really tied to supporting students and learning to read and then language can really impact how students function across the curriculum and not even just at school in life.

So I really felt overwhelmed with that part of my job, really the language and cognition. And so that was my area of study when I was getting my doctorate. And so that's what my first suite of courses was about, was supporting SLPs doing language therapy, but As I started to build out my programs, I realized that there's always this collaboration piece that's [00:08:00] so important.

A lot of times the clinicians that I was working with would want to know, here's this group of students that I have in front of me and Typically, if you're working in the public schools and sometimes in the private schools as well, if you have therapists that are providing services, they maybe get 30 to 40 minutes a week with their students, if they're lucky, which is great.

You can obviously make an impact with that 30 to 40 minutes, but it's really challenging. And so I think a lot of the clinicians, when they start to feel comfortable with that, he's realized that, They're not going to make the impact that they would like to make if they don't collaborate with their whole team and make sure that the teachers and the parents and the other therapists that they're working with know what to do when students leave that therapy room.

And so I started to expand and then I. I always wanted to work on executive functioning because that was really part of what I studied. I did a lot with metacognition [00:09:00] when I was thinking about how do we support students literacy. But and that's, while it does fall within the SLP scope of practice, it doesn't just fall within the SLP scope of practice.

Like, social workers can work on it, psychologists work on it, counselors, because it really impacts mental health as well, so. But when I was in the public schools, a lot of teachers would be working on it as well. I had some great partnerships with special ed teachers, and then of course, teachers need to know what to do when students are you know, go into their classrooms.

So really, this is something when we think about executive functioning, it really touches everybody and everyone has a unique role. So what I've been focusing on the last couple of years, in addition to the. programs that are specific to SLPs is building programs that help that related service provider team to put interventions in place that support executive functioning.

So both direct intervention and then also figuring out how to coach and [00:10:00] collaborate with the entire team to make sure that those supports are in place across the day. So that's what I do with the business. I also have a podcast as well, where I know you're going to be a guest on there. And I talk,

I can't wait.

Yeah, I like to talk to all kinds of people who are in education that touch education in some way. So, you know, the therapists, the teachers, the administrators I've had parents on, or people who work for different non profits or at tech companies and all kinds of things. So that's what I do with

there's a variety of resources on there. I mean, I will tell you something, in terms of looking at all the people you, it is such a great landing spot. And so, I encourage you to check it out. Go ahead give a plug real quick, so that way people, when you're done listening to this podcast, you can go right over to Karen's.

Go ahead, give a plug for it real quick.

yeah, so it's called De Facto Leaders. When I originally launched it, it was called Are They 18 Yet?, and it was in the parenting space, but I quickly realized that I mostly had an audience of clinicians, so I [00:11:00] pivoted, and now it's really about helping people who are in education in some way really just emerges leaders and build their leadership skills regardless of what their job title is.

So a lot of people who are teachers, again, therapists, who are not official administrators, who really want to figure out how they can make an impact on the programming in their, building. I teach them how to be confident and talk about all kinds of ways they can think about making an impact in addition to what they're already doing while they're directly working with students.

And then of course I talk with people who are in leadership roles that we typically consider as leadership roles, like administrators as well. Although I'd make an argument that everyone is a leader

Yeah, I think everybody in a school, to me, everybody in a school has a leadership role. And I think there's a great book, You Don't Need a Title to Be a Leader. And so to me, I think everybody within that school has to take on some sort of, whether you're leading a classroom or leading an activity or what, or [00:12:00] leading a committee or whatever the case might be.

I think everybody's a leader in a school. Let me ask this question to you because you brought up a word and a, executive functioning. And I think I hear this word used These words used all the time. And everybody says, you know, we need to help our kids. I mean, I've heard this for 15 years

We need to help our kids with executive functioning. We need to help our kids with it. And maybe it had a different title. Maybe it had a different wording to it or whatever the case might be. But it's so important executive functioning. And I laugh because as you and I were kind of talking off camera you know, it, you see the commercial that's out now where the little kid goes, What's the economy and people and the people that are looking at they go, what's the economy?

Oh, it's the economy, you know, it's everything and when we say what is Executive functioning and so we're gonna give it to you to tell the world What exactly is executive functioning and why is it so many people struggle with it?

yeah. So, this is, it's a really good question because, like you said, it [00:13:00] has become more of a buzzword in the last few years. It's something that I've been thinking about and I've heard about for, gosh, Back when I was in grad school back in the early 2000s, I first heard about it in my traumatic brain injury course when we're thinking about people who have had some kind of neurological event that impacts their prefrontal cortex, their frontal lobe, if they've had some kind of Again, an incident that impacts them neurologically, it can have an impact on how they are able to basically their kind of higher level self regulation skills.

So if you were to Google executive functioning, you, the definition you might get is that it's a set of mental processes located in the prefrontal cortex that helps us to engage in goal directed behavior. And so the goal directed behavior is really The thing that pops out a lot when people think of executive functioning.

And as a result, [00:14:00] sometimes people think, well, it's just time management and being organized, which is true. It is time management and being organized, but there's so much more to it than that. And unfortunately, when people think of it in simpler terms and just think it's How to be organized, then the way that they try to help kids build these skills becomes a little more superficial and we focus more on what's going on externally, instead of the internal mental processes that are happening.

So what happens is like, people will be like, Oh, well, he needs help organizing because. You know, he's always missing assignments and not on task in class, and the desk is really messy, and you know, all kinds of things, and doesn't remember his homework assignments, so let's give him an organizer, and it doesn't work.

Now, is giving an organizer a bad thing? No, but it's just this one little sliver of what, You would need to do in order to support executive functioning. So to kind of go back to the definition [00:15:00] again, if you were to do a Google search of executive functioning, you might get the definition that I just said, and then you will hear about eight or nine executive functioning skills, which I can go through kind of quickly.

But I have another way that I organize it in a way that I think is a little bit. Like, it helps people to organize it and conceptualize it a little easier. And then also, it can help people figure out what to do about it, which I think, sometimes with the traditional definitions, it's like, Alright, so what do we do?

You know?

that's it. That's it. It's it. And you can put a name to it. And then it's like, okay, great. Now, how do we attack the problem? Okay. Or how do we, you know, we're describing the water, but I need you to tell me, you know, how to get out of it kind of thing. So what would be the advice for you?

Because You don't have to be a specialist. You don't have, any classroom teacher probably has students in their classroom that are struggling with executive functioning right

Yeah.

What would be the if you're seeing kids [00:16:00] that are struggling with executive functioning, because I think you just hit something there, let's give them an organizer, let's give them a planner.

But if a student is already struggling with the organization piece, Maybe the planner is just one more log on the fire for them in terms of their brain being overwhelmed. What would be some strategies you would suggest to classroom teachers, especially in Catholic schools? A lot of our Catholic schools maybe don't have the resource teachers that they want in terms of, you know, they're stretched thin.

Maybe you may have one or two for the whole school or whatever the case may be. What would be some things that a classroom teacher can do to help students with executive functioning within their own room?

yeah. So that's a really good question. And I think that for private schools specifically, where the structure is a little bit different when it comes to supporting students with disabilities, it's really important to make sure that you have good supports at tier one. And where I always start with people, because people want to get to, you know, The how really quickly, and I always have to pump the [00:17:00] brakes on them and say, let's make sure that you really understand how to identify an executive functioning issue before we even get to the organizer, the planner, or whatever the strategies are.

And so what I do first. When I'm teaching about this is that I cluster it into the external behaviors that you might be seeing because the teacher is not going to know when do I start, I mean obviously executive functioning should be something that's kind of embedded proactively. If you have students who are struggling, there might be some kids who maybe need some additional supports above and beyond what you would normally do for your class.

So the way that I cluster it to help teachers to identify it is in five areas where we would see those external behaviors. Now there's a lot. Of internal processing going on underneath, but you need to be able to identify it before you can figure out, like, do I make a referral to a specialist, or do I just have a [00:18:00] conversation with one of my colleagues, like another teacher, my administrator, or one of the related service providers and therapists that might be seeing some of my students, and figure out some, how we could brainstorm, but the way that I cluster it would be things like attention, So, again, the kids who are either they're inattentive, they're not necessarily on task, but you know, again, or maybe they're the other way around where they're hyper focusing and they have a really hard time transitioning from one thing to another, especially if they're doing something they like and you ask them to do something that they don't like, the transitions tend to be hard.

And putting down something that they prefer to do, to going to something that maybe is a little uncomfortable, that where you might see some of those behaviors, that is something that you might see. So that self regulation attention piece, and then learning again, some of the students who seem to not learn from past mistakes.

Maybe you talked to them one day about something and, [00:19:00] you know, maybe they didn't. You know, proofread, or they didn't go back and check for their mistakes, and they seem to be making the same mistakes over and over again, and you're like, we already talked about this yesterday, why, like, why don't you remember this?

And they have a hard time transferring one skill, like we've learned it in this lesson, how do I transfer it over to another lesson? And then also some students that show those behaviors, where it's like, Their emotional reaction seems more intense than you would expect for that situation because, again, that's that self regulation piece.

And, you know, again, you might see those task avoidance and refusal more significant than you would for other students. And then again, the organization piece, the not really being able to like have that sense of time. So being able to sense that passage of time or estimate how long things will take.

And then those social inner impacts. So being able to read the room and know how to jump into a [00:20:00] conversation or be able to go back and forth and have a conversation with someone without just Kind of info dumping is the term that we use where they just talk a lot about a topic they really want, but they don't really realize that the other people aren't interested or the other way around where they kind of isolate themselves because they're not really sure how to jump in.

And so all of those things can really impact a student socially, academically. And again, those are just the external behaviors. I have a whole other thing that I could talk about as far as. Why? Like why are those things happening and what are the actual skills? So that's where I start is make sure that you understand how to recognize what executive functioning is and what behaviors are, could be due to executive functioning challenges.

And I tell this to the related service providers as well. When they're trying to figure out, like, hey, I, I'm working on this thing in my therapy room, and I need the teachers to support this in the classroom, but how do I get them on [00:21:00] board? And the advice I always give them is, Well, figure out what the teacher is struggling with.

What is their pain point right now? I guarantee you, if you have a student who is on your caseload, there's something that's happening in the classroom that teacher really cares about addressing. So that's where you start. It's not where you think the problem is. You start with where that other person thinks the problem is.

And I think that's a great point because so many times I would see, you know, and this is public and Catholic schools alike on this one, that, you know, when a third party therapist or somebody would come into the classroom, you know, everybody kind of got tense. And I would say they're here to help.

They're not here to judge. And I think that's the thing is you know, in our classrooms, our teachers are very protective of their space and they don't want to be judged and they don't want anybody to say that they're not doing the right thing or, you know, anything like that. But I said, this is a partnership.

And so I think that there's a big opportunity for us, whether you're in a [00:22:00] public or Catholic school for collaboration. I think it's so important because you mentioned, One of the things that you suggest is, you know, hey, let's go get with a peer and have a conversation about it, which I think is a great jumping off point.

But then sometimes you have parents who are willing to say, listen we will allow, we'll pay for this service to come into the schools. And I'm thinking to myself, why would you not want that? I mean, this is somebody who's willing to provide this support for their son or daughter within your classroom to have an extra person there to help this person who is struggling.

Why would you not want that? And so. I think there's so much that can be done in terms of collaboration. So for those people out there that might have that reservation, go, I don't know if I'm really comfortable with that. I'm not comfortable having somebody else in my classroom. What's a great place to start?

You mentioned before about finding where that student is, where the teacher is maybe struggling or has their pain point, What's a great place to start if you are somebody who is walking into a building that's unfamiliar in this type of a situation?[00:23:00]

yeah, that's, I mean, and I think that's a really important question to be asking. And the advice I usually give people who, if they're walking into the building is that you really, even though you are an expert and you should feel confident in your expertise and that's what I'm all about is helping clinicians and those people in the related service provider roles feel confident in their role, that they're an expert, but at the same time.

You also have to respect the expertise of other people. So I would, if you're first getting into that building, you want to focus more on building the relationships and learning. So learning before you start giving advice and really have a good understanding of what is happening in everyone's classroom.

And what is important to them before you start to come up with a plan for how you're going to intervene. And this is another thing that like, I, the way that I frame it for clinicians is that if you're going [00:24:00] to start working with the client, the way that they're trained is you do an evaluation before you make a treatment plan.

And We kind of forget that sometimes when we use our skills in another context. One other example is doing professional development, where the best way to do professional development, and I totally recognize that it's difficult to do this sometimes. But what you should do is do some type of a program evaluation, even if it's not a full blown program evaluation, maybe it's just a couple of conversations, you have to assess the situation you're walking into to make sure that the plan you come up with meets the needs and kind of you accurately diagnosed what's going on to make it fit them.

Like you wouldn't try to give a cookie cutter therapy program, even if you might have your protocols, you would still adjust them. So that's always the advice that I give is that you just, like, make sure you really understand where the other person is coming [00:25:00] from, before you start giving advice. And then I would say on the flip side of the people who are giving on the receiving end of that, who are Eh, I don't know how I feel about this.

I, again I know what that's like when you're like, Ooh, this person is in my therapy room. And it's even weirder in a therapy room when you have your principal observing you because at least in a classroom, there's more students and you can kind of hide in the back of the room in a therapy room when there's like, it's basically a closet sometimes and the principal is right there.

You can't hide the fact that there's another person in the room, so I know that is just, it's very uncomfortable for some people, and some teachers are like, whatever, come in whenever you want, And that's why I always tell the therapists, like, see what kind of, where they are with that, are they the ones that are a little more hesitant, or are they like, sure, come in, you know, because some people are just like that.

But what I tell people who are on the receiving end is that it is really overwhelming for that therapist to come in. They feel very siloed. That's one of the pain [00:26:00] points that I hear a lot. all the time, even from therapists who work full time in a building. They might be the only social worker or the only speech pathologist, or they might be a social worker that floats between multiple buildings and they don't have this sense of belonging in any building.

So it is just really nice and appreciated if you make them feel like a team member, even just little things like you know, like sitting with them at the lunch table or whatever it is. So, and it does get really hard because sometimes when you have therapists, they float between schools and they're only there for two hours.

So I know that's challenging. You have to get creative with the communication but that's just something I would share for people who might be feeling awkward about that is that they're feeling awkward too. So,

Yeah, well, yeah and it's one of those things I think that I would say they're not here to judge you, okay? They're not here to pass judgment on what you're doing in the classroom. This is probably a student that you've seen [00:27:00] struggling in your classroom as well. Okay. and they're here to provide some additional support.

They're not here to take your job, they're not here to you know, whatever, but they're here to help and they're not judging you. And here's the other thing too, you're gonna have somebody seeing some amazing things happening in your classroom that are gonna give them another tool for their toolbox to take to another school, okay, to collaborate with one another.

But I think if we just kind of put out the hand and go nope, don't want this, don't need this we're all good here, you just go sit in the back corner there and just observe. Let's welcome those partnerships. Let's welcome that collaboration because You're going to learn from each other. You're going to make each other but, and nobody's judging you whether you are the classroom teacher or whether you're the SLP who's coming in or a therapist, nobody's judging.

At the end of the day, we should all be there for the kids who are in our rooms, not to all be superstars. If the kids win, we win, you know what I mean? And I think that's the thing is we just kind of have to take our egos out of that a little bit. I think that's a big piece too. Let's let me ask this question because.

I think there's a lot [00:28:00] of principals out there that, or that may want an SLP to come into their classroom or to partner with them. What are some things that a Catholic school leader should be looking for? Because, you know, in a public school, you have a person who is assigned to you. Whereas when you're in a Catholic school you may get 15 people coming to you saying, Hey, I do this, and let me help you out.

How are we picking which ones we should look at, or what are some things that we should be looking at that would make our school stronger?

so there's a couple things, and I think one of the pain points from SLPs is that when it comes to private schools, because it's different, I think that sometimes they feel like with SLP specifically, for example, it's just articulation kids, or just fluency kids. So kids who stutter, and kids who struggle with it.

being able to pronounce sounds correctly. And then there might be other students who need more extensive services than that in the area of language and literacy and [00:29:00] cognition. And those students might be at the school, but it's more difficult to support them. And so, It would be really interesting, and I don't know how often this is done.

I know that I have some colleagues who are in private practice who do trainings with private schools or have partnerships and provide, like they might offer services contractually with schools that in the private sector. But it would be really interesting to explore multiple service delivery models, which is something else that I teach clinicians to do.

And this could be, I think primarily people are in the public schools, but you could absolutely do this in the private schools as well, where yes, you might have someone who is providing those direct services, but it would be really interesting to consider other Models of service delivery. And so what I mean by that is things like coaching and consulting and training and really focus on bolstering [00:30:00] the tier one level.

And I think that's especially important for private schools, because if you can give teachers a toolbox that they can use in their classroom, that is so kind of universal supports and accommodations is the way that I see it. would describe it as tools that they can use to enhance their learning. So when we think about things like special ed accommodations versus just universal accommodations, universal would be things that you could do in your classroom that are going to benefit all students.

And for some it's kind of a perk. It's a nice to have. But for other students who maybe have specific services that they need if they have an IEP and need accommodations, it's a something that's essential for them. So it's beneficial for some, but necessary for others in order to access their curriculum.

And I know that with accommodations, For teachers, it can feel like, here's this extra thing that I need to do, but if it's already in their [00:31:00] toolbox and it's something that they're comfortable with already, then it doesn't feel like, oh, here's this extra thing. It's just like, oh, I'm going to pull this thing out that I already know how to do, I'm already comfortable with, and I'm just going to do it for sure for these, this group of students who need accommodations.

For the other students, they can have it or not if it, if they need it, but it's kind of optional for the other students. So I think that would be a really interesting way to partner with SLPs, and with executive functioning specifically, some of the things that I've worked on with teachers is, working on skills like episodic memory.

So being able to have a picture in your mind of the past of past experiences to be able to apply it to the future or visualizing future steps, which all would fall under that umbrella of executive functioning or encouraging students to use self talk for planning and self regulation. So you're in the middle of a really challenging writing assignment.

What are you saying to yourself in your [00:32:00] head? to plan and prepare. And how are you seeing the steps in your head or seeing that end goal before you get started? And if you can kind of embed some of those things into your classroom, it's great for all the students, but you might have certain groups of students where you might need to be a little more direct with them and like, you know, pull some students aside and teach them.

more explicitly, whereas with the other students, it's, you know, it can be a little bit more flexible. So those are some of the things that I always encourage people to do. Just the idea of obviously using that direct therapy model, but being open to other ways of providing services as well.

And I love that you are bringing that into play because I think sometimes when many years ago as a special education contact and resource in my public school days, we would have a child study meeting kind of to get the process started. And oftentimes the accommodations that were being suggested were oftentimes just best teaching practices.[00:33:00]

Right. Right.

why do we need an accommodation to say we're going to see the kid in the front of the room? Just do it. Okay. And so I think sometimes when it becomes just best teaching practices or just like, Hey, just put this in your toolbox and do it for everybody. Now, obviously I understand you can have 25 kids sitting in the front of the room that presents a little bit of a problem.

But you also have other kids who may benefit more from being in the back of the room. It just is all what each individual student needs. And I think that's the challenge for our teachers is you have 20 or 25. You know, kids in your class who each have their own individual needs, and you as a teacher have the way you do things, it's like, where are those, how do all those things blend to make a successful classroom right there?

I think that's such a big thing. If, let's talk about our young kids, you, you know, I'm going to go back to executive function for a minute, because you were just talking about it. And in terms of the younger students, so if you had. Because obviously we see a lot of this in the high school, middle school, kids are struggling with this.

What are maybe three [00:34:00] things in the younger grades that you can suggest? And I'll say younger grades being elementary school,

Yeah.

What are things that you could suggest, maybe three things for our younger students to set the table for success for executive functioning down the line? These are three things that are maybe low hanging fruit.

that kids can tend to wander into trouble with if they don't get these things down pat or maybe just simple strategies, because I guess you're going to have both parents and teachers and administrators potentially listening to this. What would be something you might say to them to help their child?

Yeah. So, okay, three things. Let me see. So I will start with the self talk. So that is something that you can do. I mean, you can do that with young kids where, and it's just the things that you might be doing in your head as you're planning, just start saying it out loud and modeling that. For kids as early as possible.

And you can do that with a kindergartner when they're learning how to tie their shoes or pack their bag. [00:35:00] So that's something you can do right away and just get in the habit of doing and just say like, let me think about this. I need to go pack my bag. What kinds of things do I need? Like I need my shoes.

And you can kind of talk through how you would say that in your head. So that's one

we as adults do that too, and I think it's helpful, isn't it? You know what I mean? Okay, where did I put that? You know, or whatever the case may be.

And I think that we assume that kids are doing that, and they're not always, and so some kids will implicitly learn how to do that, but especially kids, you know, if they have ADHD, autism, or dyslexia, developmental language disorder, some of those, again, neurodevelopmental differences, they need to And then again, it's one of those things that's probably beneficial for all kids to help move them along.

So the self talk is really big and the use of visuals is important as well. But it's really important to, if you're using something like Like a schedule or a [00:36:00] checklist, if you have students who are having a hard time visualizing the steps, in addition to just like writing down a list of words to include them in the process of planning, and as you're doing that, it's going You want to be thinking through, okay, let's think through what kinds of things we would need to have on this list, because when I'm coming up with a checklist, and like the way that you do it when you're an adult and you're doing it effectively, you've actually started to engage your executive functioning before you even started writing on the list, and if we just have kids copy a list from the board, We're bypassing that step and basically doing the executive functioning for them.

So we want to include them in the process early on in the thinking and the planning of creating those lists. And for a younger child, even in the home, you could have a schedule that they come up with for how do we get ready in the morning and like, take a picture of them doing all the steps or. You know, again, have them draw a picture or [00:37:00] use some kind of a visual in addition to just like writing down the different steps.

So that's one thing that you can start doing. And I know that teachers sometimes embed that kind of visual in their classroom, but you might need to be a little bit more explicit with certain students who need that support because sometimes. Like how it might be different for a student who would need an accommodation is that you might have your overall list for the whole class and that might work for some students but some might need their own that they reference for themselves.

And again, you want to include them in the process of the planning and the thinking about the list, and then have ways to kind of check in with them. Because you also, Part of executive functioning is the planning and the execution and the coming up with the ideas and, you know, coming up with a plan B for doing something, but then as you're doing the thing, you're evaluating to make sure that you're still on track.

And sometimes you have to adjust the list. So having those conversations and not hovering, but just sort of. [00:38:00] being there with them and doing that. So, so the self talk, the visuals, and then the other thing that can be really important is access to analog clocks. So when we are looking at our digital clocks, the reason that I can look at my clock and see right now, 814, like, those numbers and those visual symbols mean something to me.

I can visualize in my head, I know what. 814 means I can, I have a sense of what 15 minutes means. But if a student is struggling with executive functioning, they don't. And so what happens is that they'll Like you say, Oh, well, this is only going to take 15 minutes. And to them, it like, they don't know what that means.

And all they know is you're asking them to do it's something that they don't want to do. And so they might inflate it and then avoid it. And you're thinking we've been arguing for longer than it would have

that it would have

Yeah. And so that

be done by now.

Right, and, but you can't reason with them through [00:39:00] that, you've got to just kind of get them to the next step, and one way you can do that is by giving them an access to an analog clock where they can actually see the space, and you can even shade in the the little blocks of time on the clock, and that could be way more effective than just a digital timer, because with a digital timer, again, you can't see it.

It's fine for people who already have that sense of time. And that's why it works for some students and not others. But I would say access to analog clocks and you can even be like, you know, from this time to this time we're doing this from this time to this time, we're doing this. And that's another way that you can incorporate a visual and help them to sense time.

And even while they're doing their writing assignment or Whatever it is they're doing while they're packing their bags or getting ready, you can even just kind of be like, Hey, like, have you noticed the time or like cue them to look back at it. So those are some little things that you can do that would be appropriate for a classroom as well, [00:40:00] where you can embed some of that work.

And again, totally appropriate for younger students, but honestly, it's something that you can, you'd have to adjust the way that you set it up and the language that you used. But this is something that I recommend really for. K through honestly adulthood because there's there are so many parents that reach out to me that are like my 16 year old is still struggling with this, or my college freshman is struggling with executive functioning because we didn't work on it when they were, I mean, they're realizing it now, but because they just didn't have the information, which is really unfortunate.

And they're kind of, kind of like, why didn't somebody tell me about this?

Well, that's and everybody says that about like money stuff. It's like why didn't anybody teach this? It's like, you know Eventually we have to stop and go. Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna be the one to teach it. So Let's ask this question because our audience out there is a lot of Catholic school leaders So I'm gonna ask you a two part question One is what's the question you get asked the most [00:41:00] by Catholic school leaders?

And I guess the second part of it is, what's the question you wish you were getting asked more by Catholic school leaders?

Yeah. So the question that I get asked the most, honestly, I think where they start is, I think most people know that a speech pathologist would work on sounds. So like, we know that if a kid is struggling with R, that they would that would be someone you would refer to a speech pathologist. So I think the question that I get asked the most is more clarification on the scope of what the role is.

So that would be probably where, it's what do you do? Like, what is your job? And even though people know on a basic level, and that's not just specific to Catholic school leaders, like that's sometimes principals in the pri, in the In the public school as well. So that would be the first thing is just asking just a question about [00:42:00] clarification of roles.

And yeah, I mean, I think there's just not a full understanding of the scope of what an SLP does specifically that we can be involved in language and literacy. So I would, I guess to the second part of your question, what, yeah, let me regroup and rephrase that because this is pretty common.

Okay. We get asked to weigh in on the obvious speech delays, like a kid is not able to pronounce their sounds. That's where we get pulled in, and where I think a lot of people wish they would get pulled in would be the areas of like language and cognition and literacy, because we can offer so much in that area, and I think that a lot of people feel like, like why do people tell me this is not, like, stay in my lane?

And I think that people wish that they, were consulted more for those types of things and that their services were valued and asked for with things like executive functioning and literacy and that they got [00:43:00] to weigh in on those types of things. Now, I know some therapists who are in the public school who they try to get involved in executive functioning and are told, stay in your lane, this is Why are you even working on this?

Like, I've had people say that to me on my ads, like, why are you working on that as a speech pathologist? Like, and I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna try to get in an argument with someone on a Facebook ad, but obviously if it's somebody that I'm collaborating with, there's an opportunity there to. to educate, which you know, I think the best way to do that is to get your foot in the door in some way, again, going back to what are they asking for and how can you show that you can be a support in that area. So yeah, that, that's probably how I would answer that question, that we just wish that we were asked to weigh in on some of those other things that are within our scope.

Yeah. And an SLP who comes into your classroom doesn't want to take over your classroom. They don't want your job. They don't want, you know, they're there to [00:44:00] help your kids. Okay. And that's the end game is they're there to help your kids, your students. They're their students as well. You know, they're all of our students.

And so I think that's the big thing right there that I would say. Is be welcoming and be open to having that additional resource in your classroom to help your students who are in need and collaborate because we can all learn from each other and they may learn just as much from you as you learn from them and that's just going to make our education system just a better place.

So. Karen, I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate the conversation. This has been so good. And I know so many people are going to benefit from this. Thank you for the work that you do. And please let's make sure we stay in touch and keep this conversation going.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. If you're enjoying the Catholic School Leaders podcast, please be sure to like and subscribe, and don't forget to share these podcasts with other Catholic school leaders in your network [00:45:00]