The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast, where we discuss leadership in Catholic education. I'm John Mihalyo, the president and founder of Elementary Advancement Solutions, dedicated to enhancing Catholic education and connecting Catholic school leaders worldwide. One of the things I do with each guest and interview before I start it and before I record, it usually is the guest and I will say a quick prayer together. And I thought, since this is the Catholic School Leaders Podcast, why aren't we starting every episode with a prayer?

So as we move forward, I wanna start this episode and future episodes with a quick prayer. So let's begin.

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Well, heavenly Father, thank you for this opportunity to come together as your children to talk about and discuss future leaders in Catholic education. Please bless my guest today, John Marinucci and his work so that together we may give your name, honor, praise, and glory.

Through our [00:01:00] discussion, we pray it will bring your light, love, and mission to our listeners and the world. We ask this through your son Jesus Christ, amen. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the 30th episode of the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. So first and foremost, I wanna say a big thank you to everybody out there that has listened.

I pray that these interviews have been helpful. They've been able to present you with some information and, being helpful in your vocation as a, as a Catholic school leader. And, and I realize that each week I talk about hey, if you wanna grow Catholic education, visit elementary advancements.

But, but I've never really. Talked about what is elementary advancement solutions. So I just wanna quick take a quick second to do that. for those of you that have heard this in the past, I've, I was a Catholic school principal for 15 years and as a Catholic school principal in three different schools high school, elementary schools, preschools.

There were there two different diocese. I started this elementary Advancement Solutions to help schools grow and to connect [00:02:00] because I know how lonely of a job it is leading a Catholic school. It can be lonely being a principal or an advancement director or assistant principal. Recruitment and marketing.

everything is so go, go, go, go, go, and people forget that we're human and, and we need support in our jobs as well. So I really wanted to create elementary advancement solutions to do just that. And maybe your school whose enrollment is struggling maybe your, your fundraising goals are coming up short.

And, and so each year I work with a number of schools, to help them reach their goals. And I, I'm, I'm really proud of the schools that I work with because they're working so hard and they're growing each day. And my goal is to make advancement coaching both affordable and accessible to every Catholic school.

So if I can help you meet your goals in these areas, let's have a conversation, schedule. Time to meet with me. You can visit elementary advancement.com/advancement. I, I would love to hear about your goals and love to see if I can help you reach them. So, if that's something that your school is looking to do, please feel free to reach out.

Let's have a conversation. Now, [00:03:00] the other service that, that Elementary Advancement Solutions offers are mastermind groups. And, and you hear, what, what are our mastermind group? What, what are these? These are great ways for leaders to connect with other school leaders that are in your field twice a month.

It allows you to brainstorm, to ask questions, to work through problems, and just have that professional support system outside of your own diocese and outside of your own school building. These groups are not only great work to work with because, you know, as we all know, iron sharpens iron. But I gotta be honest with you, they're a lot of fun too.

Right now we have mastermind groups for principals as well as advancement directors. I'm gonna give a big shout out to those members who have such great conversations and, and are learning so much from each other. And, and I try to price them so that you can afford them without breaking your professional development budget as well.

'cause I know that's, that's important. So, something exciting today that I'm, I'm happy to announce with our theme today being future Catholic School Leaders. The newest mastermind at Elementary Advancement Solutions is for [00:04:00] our aspiring administrators that's gonna start this fall. If you wanna learn more about any of these groups, visit elementary advancement.com/mastermind.

You can learn more information, you can even register and for a, a group, whether it's a principal group or advancement director group, or, and now an aspiring administrator, go ahead on there, elementary advancement.com/mastermind. You could register and I will reach out to you directly.

I'm just so excited about our masterminds because I see how helpful they are to our school leaders. One of our members recently told me that they have been instrumental in their growth, and that just makes me happy and brings me a lot of joy. So if you're enjoying the podcast please take a quick second to give it a, like, give it a thumbs up.

Share it with other leaders because that's the name of the game, is to grow Catholic education, not only in the United States, but across the world. And so if you know somebody that could benefit from this episode or another episode, from one of our past ones, please feel free to share that. I can't thank you enough.

Give it a thumbs up, give it a like, subscribe. If you [00:05:00] can leave a review and you have 30 seconds to do that I'd be most grateful. So, as I mentioned before, today's topic of the day is developing future leaders in Catholic education, and I'm so honored today to have Mr. John Marinucci as my guest.

John is currently the principal of St. Francis College. The school is situated in Logan City. Adjacent to the southern edges of Brisbane and St. Francis College is a contemporary Catholic school inspired by the Franciscan values of simplicity and harmony. Prior to John's principal appointment, he was head of campus at St.

Francis College, which is, which is a seventh through 12th grade school. He has significant school experience most recently at Carmel College, Thornlands at St. Mary's College. Ipswich. John holds a master of education, educational leadership from Australian Catholic University. A Bachelor of Business Accountancy from Queensland University of Technology and a diploma of teaching [00:06:00] from Mount GR College of Advanced Education, which is now Griffith University outside of work.

John likes to read go camping, where he can sit by a campfire and spend time with his wife and three children. Welcome, John. It's great to have you here today.

Thank you John for having me on your program.

So, so you and I have been talking and, and we're discovering that we, we have a passion for some, a lot of similar things here. And including one of them in, in our most recent travels, I guess. We, we both happen to be kind of in the same place at the same time without even realizing it.

Quite correct, both in Italy and around Assisi

Exactly. So,

Rome. Yes,

the whole nine yards. So, so as, as John and I have gotten to know each other, we discovered that if for those of you that listened to the podcast about what I learned in Italy about leadership, John happened to be in Italy at the same exact time as me. So it was a bummer that we, we didn't get to run into each other, but there may have been a few other [00:07:00] people in the country of Italy at that time to kind of prevent that from happening. Yes, just a few, especially in Rome, right?

Correct, yeah.

So what we're going to be talking about today, and I know something that you and I both share a passion for, and that's developing our future leaders in our Catholic schools. Before we get into that, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and kind of your journey into Catholic education leadership.

Well, I'm Principal of St Francis College in Crestmead, Brisbane, Australia, and I've been working in Catholic education for over 35 years. Originally started as a teacher of mathematics and social science. then became a head of department, a year level coordinator, assistant principal, journeying through being a deputy principal, head of campus, and now a principal.

So my journey into Catholic education and leadership, I guess is driven by my passion [00:08:00] for fostering a culture of faith and learning and service in our schools. And I believe that Catholic education is not only about Academic excellence, but also forming the whole person in the image and likeness of Christ.

And I feel privileged to be part of the community that shares this vision and mission, and to be able to lead a school that strives to live out the gospel values every day.

And I love the motto that your school has in simplicity and harmony. I think that's awesome.

Very Franciscan, since we are a Franciscan college, yes.

Very much so. So now when, when a person starts thinking about becoming a leader in a Catholic school, and as we know, even in Australia and the United States, cause you are, you and I are probably quite a distance away from each other here as we record this, but we found some similarities. We found some differences in kind of the development of our, of our future leaders.

So when a person starts to [00:09:00] think about that hey, I'm, I'm, I, this is something that interests me. This is something that I'd like to move maybe out of the classroom one day and into a leadership role. And you just said it right there. You've held a number of titles. I've held a number of titles as well in terms of that preparation.

But as they begin thinking about this, Kind of, what are those things that you see as being the most helpful pieces of your journey that you took and said, this is, this is something that really helped me. And I know sometimes people say, I want to skip that part and just get to the, to being a principal, but there is something to be said, I think about that learning and that opportunity to ask questions and kind of get your get the lay of the land, so to speak.

Yeah, sure, John. Well, I guess it was never in the game plan to be a principal. I entered teaching and then I actually left teaching, went into the world of business retail management. And then I came back to teaching because I just missed those relationships and working with future generation, et cetera.

So, and along that [00:10:00] journey, I thought, happy to be. teacher. And then someone saw something and sort of tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, we can see some leadership here. And you just moved through those ranks, but be contented in what you're doing. I know that some people have very much career driven goals, et cetera, but I think when you, you want to move into that leadership and I'm very late starter as a principal, but I think it's been very good.

Well grounded because I held the position of we used to call them in Australia, positions of added responsibility, which we now call middle leaders. And as a middle leader, that's a great way to, I guess, dip your toe into the leadership arena. Because as a middle leader, you've got the opportunity to lead and participate in various projects or initiatives that help align school priorities and goals.

So. In my life, like I've worked in curriculum development, [00:11:00] student leadership, community engagement, school improvement, and as we go through obviously probably innovation as well. And they're just some of the things in as a middle leader. That gives you the springboard to then decide, do you want to launch more fully as an assistant principal and down that senior leader role.

So, I think putting your toe in the water as the elementary level of middle leader. gives you a good grounding into what lies ahead.

Yeah, because there's still that opportunity to go, you know what, this is not what I thought it was. And I, I think that's one of the things that I see all the time. I don't say all the time, but I have seen is people, we all know this, they go through their schooling and they get to the student teaching part.

And they go, this is not what I thought it would be and now they've just spent three to four years inside of a, a college classroom realizing this is not what I expected this to be, or maybe, you know, whatever the case might be. So I think that opportunity to get that experience [00:12:00] in leadership roles without having to say, okay, I'm all in and I'm going to change the whole trajectory of my, of my professionalism here is, is, is a whole different ballgame.

Now, I think something you just noted, though, is very important, and I think we're going to talk to two different groups of people when I ask, or when I say this question. There are either people out there right now who are in leadership roles, who are tasked with really identifying and developing the next generation of leaders.

And then there are others. who are out there saying, I really want to be the next generation of leaders or I don't realize it yet, but boy, I would do a great job as a, as a leader. Okay. So let's talk first to the people who are currently our leaders. What are some things that some ways you, you mentioned somebody tapped on your shoulder and said, Hey, maybe give this a look.

What are some things or advice you would give to our current principals superintendents, whatever the case might be, to say, hey, these are some opportunities to [00:13:00] give people that chance or maybe that little bit of a nudge to say, hey, think about this a little bit.

Well, I guess, the important thing is to identify that sort of talent fairly early and then work with them, coach them, mentor them putting them into programs programs, whether it's professional development to help them move, I guess, leaders generally. have a high internal benchmark and they have high expectations and they always try to exceed them.

So anyone in any area of leadership, I guess part of it is to build a following and create more leaders because to me that is one of the things about being a good leader is that you're building that leadership capacity and others. So whatever opportunities that you can provide people to do that. would be great.

So, you know, delegating with some of the tasks you might have and coach and mentor them [00:14:00] through. And as a leader, generally we need to trust our staff and delegate tasks. So this is another way that we could whether we're talking as a school or as a system or even larger than that provide those opportunities.

And I think too, give, giving people the opportunity with little things and see what they can do with those little things. Because if you can handle little things you can handle big things, right? And so, but you got to give me, you have to be given the opportunity to, and so I, I think that's, I think that's one of the most important things that we can do.

But I think the other thing too that I would say is sometimes as an assistant principal, sometimes you basically get the things that just the principal doesn't want to do. Okay, and, and really, You know, we all know as, as leaders, there's, there's things that we don't enjoy doing as much as other things.

Okay. But. We can't just say, I don't feel like doing this, so let's just pass this off to the assistant principal or the, the intern or whatever the case might be. Because then that's [00:15:00] really not giving them the chance to develop into that potential leader.

Absolutely, John. I remember many years ago when the role of assistant principal was introduced in Australia and a lot of the schools did exactly that. So, oh, well, we've got to give up jobs to assistant principals. So, The principal shelved some of the jobs and the deputy goes, well, I probably wouldn't mind some of those jobs.

So took some of those and then shelved the other ones. And so the assistant principal in the early days just became a collection of odd jobs that nobody wanted, which sort of defeats the purpose, because you're not really giving people a fair go. I guess it's still giving people an opportunity to prove themselves.

And since then, though, that the system has changed quite dramatically, and the portfolios are more aligned. with the work that they do, but it's not only giving them the [00:16:00] task, but giving them full responsibility and accountability for it as well, because it's no point giving part of that equation and then you're still holding onto the rest of it

Yeah, most certainly.

good background from them.

Yeah, and that's exactly it. It is that you want to give them that and say, hey, this is yours. Run with it. And, and I think if you can give them something small to start with and then, okay, hey, you did well with this, now this. And then when they're able to walk into those assistant principal interviews, or the next phase of their career they're able to talk about those experiences and they're able to actually say, Hey, I did this.

You know, this is what I can bring to the table.

if we're talking about sort of mentoring and coaching people into these positions, I think From my experience, some of the leaders that I've worked with, I guess it's having that tough conversation is what people call them. I probably prefer to call them crucial conversations [00:17:00] because if you, you take that first courageous step to have that crucial conversation, it's going to help you.

then those conversations become less difficult. And that's certainly an area that a lot of leaders struggle in. Even experienced leaders struggle with those crucial conversations. So that's certainly an area for experienced and inexperienced leaders. And that can be developed by those people sitting in on those conversations.

And then through a gradual release of responsibility, eventually leading those conversations with the experienced leader. And then you're helping those aspiring leaders develop themselves.

Absolutely. I could not agree more. And I think that's such an important piece of things because as we identify this next generation of leaders within our Catholic schools I'm sure you've seen it as well. And, and, and even though we're in different countries, You see the turnover that's there. And you know, having [00:18:00] those candidates ready to go, ready to step in when there is a retirement or a promotion or anything like that, you want to have those people on your bench ready to go,

Absolutely. And succession planning is so important whether you do it intentionally or as an aside, but it's important to develop people because eventually, you know, the, the team will go. And here certainly in Australia, imagine over the next five years in particular, there will be Quite a dramatic turnover because of the, the age of a number of people.

And so we've got to be able to have the backup there. And if we're not giving those people opportunities, then they're going to struggle when they get to that particular stage.

or they're going to look to go somewhere else. And, and then we, we lose them. And so now, so let me shift it for a moment here, because we've been talking to our current leaders. So now let's talk to our other group. Those people who. are interested in being leaders, [00:19:00] or maybe sometimes you know, hey, these people got picked to be part of this program, and this is something I'd really like to do, but I didn't get selected, or wow, I've never thought about doing that before.

So let's talk to our Aspiring leaders for a few moments here. Okay. What would you say to that person if they have those aspirations or interest in maybe taking on a leadership role, as you mentioned, kind of dipping your toe in the water a little bit to see, is this something I'd like to do? Cause sometimes people are all in and other times maybe a little bit afraid to ask, or maybe take that step out into the, into the deeper waters.

So what advice would you have for those people?

I would, I would imagine just effectively communicate your desire to, to be involved. Cause that's an important aspect. If you're communicating that with your leaders and they know that you're keen, then that's part of the problem already resolved, but trying to get involved in that whole strategic [00:20:00] perspective and framework that a lot of people don't get to be involved in that until they reach higher levels in senior leadership.

So trying to get that foot into the door with those. And To try and to make strategic decision making will be around people who are experienced leaders to be able to do that and effectively analyze complex problems and that will certainly prepare you for the next phase in your leadership journey. In today's.

educational world. You almost need to also be a business leader because the, the world of schools is becoming very business. So many ethical and legal and certainly understanding financials are important. I mean, we're all pretty good at reading policies, laws, and ensuring a safe and inclusive school.

But what about the business side being able to sustain that as well? So there are some things, I guess, if [00:21:00] you're an aspiring leader to look at that. And, you know, it's a complex repertoire of skills, I guess, John you know, there's a whole lot of skills that you need. There are traits and characteristics, but also competencies.

And I encourage aspiring leaders to take on leadership roles within their schools, because when you lead a team or a committee or project or any of those things, they provide you with opportunities. And you can also shadow people and observe them or co facilitate with experienced leaders. So. By doing all of that, I, I believe that gives you a good, good grounding in context to harness that experience so that when it's necessary to step in the role, you're already pretty well prepared.

I think your comment there, if there's one thing I could say to any person out there that is an aspiring leader, there is a business of education and there is a [00:22:00] business side of education. Okay, and, and you can know everything there is to know about curriculum, and you could know everything there is to know about what happens inside a classroom.

But when, what we do to run a school outside of our classrooms is a whole different ball of wax on that one. Okay, and so I think that is the skill set that I see so many future leaders needing that experience in is that budgeting piece. As a Catholic school principal, you need to be an expert in, or at least moving toward mastery of fundraising, of recruitment, of marketing, of public speaking, of communication, of budgeting.

These are the skills that you're going to use each and every day. In addition to that skill set that you're bringing from the classroom in terms of that curriculum development, a piece of things.

And we all I guess as you move through the leadership rank, You're effective communicators and [00:23:00] that's an ongoing skill that you develop, I guess, very early as a middle leader. And then it just strengthens as you move through the whole leadership arena. But my advice is don't be afraid to communicate and keep people informed of what's going on.

And that's very easy when it's the good news, but you also need to communicate the bad news to people because if you don't, then they go, There's something being hidden here. What are they sweeping under the carpet? And I guess every day in a school is different, you know, even as a teacher, but as a leader, every day is a new challenge.

So being adaptable and being a problem solver is important and the ability to have a a good sense of humor. I think that's a good thing. It looks after yourself as well, but it's sometimes having that sense of humor. You can also diffuse very volatile situations and you've got to be passionate about what [00:24:00] you do.

That enthusiasm and commitment and dedication, because when you go into a leadership role, if you're a clock watcher, Well, this isn't the game for you. In leadership, nothing ever was achieved by being a clock watcher and you've got to have a growth mindset. And you talked about business acumen and very much so about the role of ethics in what we do.

So we've got to embrace change and we're certainly in an era of change in schools. And once upon a time, it was just, education, whereas now it's education plus a whole range more and workplace health and safety is becoming so vital and understanding that for people. So

And I,

important things.

I think there's, if there's one thing I could say to an aspiring administrator out there, okay? The one thing that I think I, I would have learned [00:25:00] is 15 years as a, as a Catholic school principal, another five as a, as a public school assistant principal. is there are a lot of great programs out there that will help your school grow, but your people are more important than any program you will develop.

And if your people trust you and your people believe in the vision that you're setting for your school they will follow. Okay. And they will, they will get behind that. But you have to invest in your people. And whether that be through professional development or just making time for them or being seen in your school or whatever the case might be, But it's, it's the people that make a Catholic school what it is.

It's your students, it's your teachers, it's your families. And I think that's one of the biggest skills that I think our future administrators need to have is that ability to work with people. And we all know we're not going to agree with everybody 100 percent of the time, and they're not going to agree with us 100 percent of the time.

But we've got to work toward that common goal that we're setting for our school.

Oh, for sure, John. As a classroom teacher, [00:26:00] you know, my mantra, I guess, was always, you got to relate before you can educate. And I still say that today to our teachers. And we are in the people business and relationships are key. I know we're talking about education, but we can't educate the kids in front of us if we don't have that relationship.

And the same is or even mortuary as a leader. We've got to be human and part of being human is that conversation and being approachable and being able to demonstrate some, I guess, compassion and sensitivity, which are all people type skills. And we've certainly got to be very high on that. inter, interpersonal relationships.

And if you want to be a true leader, then you've got to realize that being approachable is not like a one item on your checklist that you cross off and go, great, I've done that. And that requires effort and being approachable [00:27:00] starts with being real and. building trust, and perhaps even being an active listener.

They're important leadership skills and that you can continue as you go on. And that whole building relationships and understanding others, that's how you get to inspire people as well. Because if people don't have an interest in what you're doing or saying, and you take no interest in them, then you can't achieve strategic goals and working towards what needs to be done at schools.

And I guess by enhancing your people skills, you can transition from being a technical person into a people oriented leader. You often see people who are great mechanics. They go, Oh, I'm really good at this. They're a technical operator. And then they go, Oh, I'm, I'm so good. I'm going to start my own mechanic business.

And then they fail because they're good at that technical skill, but [00:28:00] running a business of so having that business sense behind them, how to talk to customers, that's where they may fail. So as a school leader, you've got to be able to, to talk to people because if we don't do that, We've, we've lost everyone.

We've lost our people that work for us. We've lost our kids. We've lost our parents.

And I think that was something like I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Jacob, a mom who started the College of St. Joseph the worker up in Steubenville, Ohio. And he's a trade school for for students. He said, my goal is not to teach kids to be electricians or to be carpenters. It's to be leaders and to own their own business in those areas.

Okay, and I think much like you're saying with that is, is it's one thing to be able to do, but we want them to have the bigger picture, the whole scope. And hey, we all have things that we need to work on. None of us are perfect, and spoiler alert out there, If you think you're ever going to know everything just, you know, you, we're always going to keep [00:29:00] growing again.

There's always things we got to keep growing on. So, I, I think you hit the nail right on the head there. The other thing I would say too is, is that you don't need a title to be a leader in your school. Okay. And, and you can kind of set that tone. If, if for what's happening in your school right now by what's happening in the teacher's lounge or a carpool or, you know, whatever the case might be how you carry yourself in those environments right now really speaks a lot to the future leader that you'll be.

Because I'll tell you, you know, If, if you're the person that's, that's a great bit about the administration all the time, and then you move into a leadership role, you have the people say, well, wait a minute, you were the one saying that this isn't, isn't that okay for me to say? So, so you've got to recognize if this is an aspiration that you have, it starts today before you're even in the role.

And I think that's so important for people to realize is, You don't need the title to be a leader in the school.

Absolutely. And that's what we keep saying. Put your hand up, step up. [00:30:00] And some of our best leaders are non badged or non title leaders because they actually do that. They don't want those accolades or titles, but they're happy to get in and do the work and help lead others in the process. And without those sorts of people, we would struggle.

So yeah, we need both badged and you know, the non official leaders.

And, and when we talk about being a leader, there is a huge difference between with, with the utmost respect to our colleagues in public schools. There's a huge difference between a public school administrator and a Catholic school administrator. And the Catholic piece is a big piece of this. You are a Catholic school administrator, which means that.

You have to be comfortable leading in the faith. And I know this is something that a lot of people struggle with. They say, well, I'm just not comfortable with that aspect of things. What's, what's something there, how do you feel that you could speak to people to say, Hey, this is how you can prepare for [00:31:00] this aspect, because it is important, you, you are the leader in the faith within your school

Yeah, John I guess that's a bit difficult at times because it can be acquired if you've got the right train, training environment, but by and large, this is in your heart, you know, the first essential requirement for leading in the faith is to have that personal relationship with Jesus and a commitment to the teachings of the church, because without a strong and authentic faith, A leader can't inspire others to live according to that Catholic vision as well, and so future leaders need to cultivate their own spiritual life through prayer and sacraments, scripture, spiritual direction, and if they do that, And they have that rich heritage of Catholic, Catholic doctrine.

See, I went to a Catholic school, and I teach in a Catholic school, so my whole life has been [00:32:00] around that. And growing through that spirituality and social teaching, or Catholic social teaching, they're just ways, I guess, that we work there. The next generation leaders, I guess, need to realize that The other aspect is that they're not in line, you know, there are Catholic school leaders everywhere, whether they're in our system or not, but if we're talking about our Catholic schools, then we're certainly part of the larger community of Catholic educators.

Even though our school mottos and missions and visions might be slightly different, we certainly have the same sort of value set. And we can learn and each, I guess, each leader helps support others. So future leaders should seek to build those relationships with colleagues in their networks, you know, with their local parish.

You know, the wider Catholic community, and part of that would be around [00:33:00] collaboration. And so we collaborate on a whole lot of educational issues. Why don't we collaborate around the Christian or Catholic dimension? Because if we foster that sense of community and partnership, then our future leaders can enrich their own faith.

And by enriching their own faith, they're enriching and enhancing the quality and impact that they have on their school. So John, leading in the faith is a challenge, but also a privilege and a joy.

without question and, and being I think when you are wearing your faith and it does Take time to, to get comfortable leading, you know, in, in, in that aspect of things because I think one of the things that people don't realize is the one aspect of your school that's going to touch all others is that Catholic culture and that Catholic identity.

Okay. No matter what other aspect of your school you have going on you know, and I often talk about the, the things that I think make up a great Catholic school and, and your [00:34:00] Catholic culture is going to be the one constant that touches all of those. And if you don't do that, then you have a private school, not a Catholic school.

And there's a big difference between the two, okay? A Catholic school is leading in the faith and leading in the teachings. And it's a non negotiable. We are a Catholic school and this is, we're gonna do this. We're gonna can I skip church? No, you can't because that's who we are as a school. You know, school masses or things like that.

And so I think that's so important for us to keep at the forefront. And if we do that, we can't lose.

Sure. I remember as an early career teacher, I had a principal that said, We're not a school with a cross on it. We are a Catholic school, which is quite different to just a regular school and just putting that little plus sign in front of the school, you know, for the non Catholics.

So there is a very big difference. And I know. Colleagues in other schools are certainly becoming more aware of the [00:35:00] values driven and working around that. But certainly for us in Catholic schools, it's very much around that. That the, the way we operate every day and in the words of St Francis, every day preach the gospel and when necessary, use words.

And that's exactly our, our way of life.

And, and I would even go a step further to say if when somebody asks you, Hey, how do I know you're a Catholic school? If your only answer is, well, we go to mass once a month we go to mass once a week. Okay. What else you got? What? I mean, that's a, that's a huge aspect of being a Catholic school.

I think that's so important. I'm not diminishing the mass or anything like that. But, but as you just said, how are we living the gospel each and every day with what we do in our school setting? We have an opportunity, and, and if you think about it, we, we have these kids come into our schools when they're in preschool or first grade or kindergarten, and they're in our schools for, you know, six, ten, thirteen, fifteen years in our Catholic [00:36:00] school settings, and yet I see so many studies that say Catholics are falling away from the faith.

As Catholic schools, we have a tremendous responsibility to make sure that we give these kids that Catholic faith. So it's something that they say, I can't live without this. This is such an important part of who I am.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, John.

So, one of the things we were talking about before was a person going from a teaching role to being an administrator. And sometimes people do this, you know, hey, I'm, I was at school A and now I'm gonna go to school Z and I'm gonna start there. You, you move locations, you move towns, you move even school districts or diocese.

But sometimes, You go from the second grade teacher to now you're the assistant principal, okay? And or, or maybe in some instances, depending on how big the school is, you go from the teacher to now you're in charge of the school. And I guess the question I would have is [00:37:00] what advice do you have for people who make that shift?

Because You're kind of moving from buddy to boss and that's a big difference right there. Come on, we were, we were friends before. We, we always is. What advice do you have for those folks to, to say to them, hey, this is the responsibility that you have now. And, and here's some advice that, you know, maybe I've learned or, or have seen that would help you.

That whole transitioning. I guess it's much easier to transition to a whole new school or environment. Transitioning from being a teacher to a leader in the same school can be quite difficult and a delicate process. And I guess it depends on how you handle that with your former peers and friends. My tips, and I've been involved in this a couple of times in my educational leadership journey, would be to face that challenge.

And communicate quite clearly with everyone and how you manage your, I guess, [00:38:00] maybe if we say favourites and how you manage those conflicts. So you've got to always communicate clearly and also respectfully. And as a leader, you need to communicate your expectations, goals, feedback, support, and how you support your staff.

And certainly when you're transitioning from working in the same school to a leader in the school. You've got to listen to people's concerns, ideas and opinions, you know, be honest and transparent. You've got to be consistent, because that's one thing that people will certainly go, Oh, You did this with this person, but now you've got a different way of handling.

You've got to respect people's personal and professional boundaries. And I guess with that, you've got to also manage those conflicts because conflicts are inevitable in any workplace and how you manage that will also dictate how successful you can be. That [00:39:00] transitioning from buddy to boss don't ignore or avoid the conflicts just because they're your friends, because that will then I guess escalate and you'll lose a whole respect of people that would've potentially follow you.

And many times people take conflicts personally. You know, I, I often call that as a Q-tip. quit taking it personally, you know, because that affects you and your relationships. And earlier on, John, you, you were talking about how you used to bag the school leadership. Now you're part of it. Well, you've got to maintain your integrity and credibility, and you always need to model those values and behaviors that you would expect from staff and, and in the Catholic school, upholding that mission and vision of the school and certainly your faith.

Don't compromise on your principles or ethics just for the sake of popularity because, yeah, everyone wants to be popular, but we're not in the popularity [00:40:00] business and if we wanted to have a popular contest, we could go as, as a comedian, but that's not our job. Our job is to lead.

If there's, there's probably many of people, my kids included, that are happy I'm not a comedian with my terrible dad jokes, you know what I mean?

Ah, same here.

So, and I think, too, one of the things that when you move into a leadership role for that first time, especially in a school that you've already been in, you probably hear the conversation, why do they do it this way?

Why is it done this way? Or why, why is this like this? Why is this done like this? way? And then you get into the role and you understand why it is that way. And I always say sometimes you need to make sure you understand why the fence was put up before you tear the fence down, okay? Because once the fence is down, now you've got a mess, okay?

So I think one of the things that you really have to take the time to get to do, you may have a strong opinion. about something, but take the time to understand why the school does it that [00:41:00] way or why, you know, just to go in and change everything because you may only have 10 people that are that are upset that this is happening, but have another 90 that are very happy that it's happening that way and by listening to the small majority there and not realizing that they're the small majority, Now you have a big mess on your hands.

So I think one of the things I would say is really getting to know that culture of your school and what those core values are within the school, is also so important.

I wouldn't agree more, John. You know, certainly those first 90, 100 days, in a new role, it's very important and crucial because people are watching you, and you should be doing exactly that. watching, listening, asking questions to, to gain, engage what's working, what's not, having one on ones with a whole lot of people to gain that information.

And that's a good way to build trust as well. You know, cause trust is built over time and leadership though is [00:42:00] every day and your leadership is building over time as well. And that's a key where the. You're a classroom teacher, a middle leader, or an aspiring principal, and I guess future leaders can certainly make that whole transition a lot easier from teacher to leader if they take on Those key elements of listening actively and working on the things that they know that when I was a teacher, perhaps I would have perhaps maybe communicated this better or instigating those little finer points.

And that's how we get, you know, better and better as a school or as a system.

And I think when you are in that process of becoming a leader don't be afraid to ask for help. You, you've said that a couple of times, I've asked questions. Don't be afraid to ask for help. And, and if you realize, Hey, I was given this task to do and you're struggling with it, it's okay to ask for help.

Or, or if you realize maybe [00:43:00] you, you zigged when you should have zagged to me, you know, one of the areas where I kind of felt I was ready to become a was when I could not only walk into my principal's office and say, We have a problem with this. This was the problem we have versus this is the problem and here's how I think we can fix it.

But what are your thoughts? Okay. Yeah, that's exactly what I would do with it as well. Go. And, and now you've got it. You've got that blessing and you've gotten that. Yeah. Okay. Now I know I'm making the right decision. And the more of those conversations you can have where you're not only coming in with the problem, but also the solution of what you think might fix it.

You're moving and you're doing that problem solving that you talked about before.

Yeah, that's so true, John. You know, as a classroom teacher, we always talk about that growth mindset and an open mindset. And it's okay to make mistakes because we learn from mistakes. But as teachers or as leaders, we're very reluctant. and to do that. And as much as we may say that to [00:44:00] our staff as well, staff go, are they sure that they're happy with us making mistakes?

But it's how you deal with the mistakes that are made and how you debrief and work with people around that. that builds that culture, that it is quite safe to make mistakes and learn from mistakes. Because yes, some people are just great at everything they do. But sometimes the way we learn most is by making mistakes.

And the important thing is and when I was dealing with students in terms of behavior management, I would often say to students, It's okay to make mistakes because this is a safe place to do it, but don't keep making the same mistake over and over again because then that becomes a different type of conversation.

So you're right ask questions and it's quite okay to make mistakes.

And I think as you're in this stage of your leadership journey one of the things I often see, too, and, and this would always be the case when I would get asked to come observe a teacher, [00:45:00] they would come and say, I do this lesson every year, and it's one of my favorite, and it's one of the kids favorites every year, will you come observe me?

Well, you already know it's a good lesson, and I know it's a good lesson, and the kids know it's a good lesson, okay? So why would I come observe a great lesson when you already know it's a good lesson, okay? Okay? Bring me in to observe you on the thing that you say, listen, I'm not used to doing this, but I'm going to try it.

Would you come give me some feedback on this? So now from the perspective of a potential leader, you know the things you're good at. Look into those things that you're not real strong at and say, hey, listen, I'm not really strong in this area. Is there something I can be part of, or is there something I can take on this where I can get some experience in a safe environment today in a a safe setting where, where there's a net underneath of me, okay, where somebody's going to be there to help me develop in that area so that now I have that skill as I move forward with [00:46:00] things.

Oh, so true. And that's even for experienced leaders, but the important thing is, you know, and you've highlighted a number of things there, John, in terms of, you know, coming to view a lesson that I'm already good at. But that's to prove to you that, you know, I'm quality. But yeah, I don't want to necessarily show the chinks in my armor or my weaknesses, etc.

But that's where we need to work at. We, we need to work on those because we've got to lift that. to the same level and degree of where you're flying high in others in other aspects of your work. And that's whether you're a classroom teacher or as a leader, because we all have areas that we are much better.

I mean, there are some leaders that are very, task driven, and they are not people. And then you've got other people who are very much into that relationships, but suffer under task. Well, both of those leaders [00:47:00] will struggle because you will have people on either side going, Oh, this is great. It's all fuzzy and warm, etc.

But we're not getting the jobs done. There's no organization. And then other people go, Oh, this is like a micromanagement organization. Everything is just compliance. It's ticked off. We've got all these tasks. Where's some social life? Where's the, the people sent? Where's the wellbeing? So we need to be all rounded.

And the way we get all rounded is picking up those areas that were a little bit weaker and developing and growing in those, because for us to be a leader, you have to tick off many different areas and be high flying in all of them.

And I think knowing, Your strengths, and I always will say to people, you better know what you know, and know what you don't know, and get, and find out who knows what you don't know, and get them on your team as quickly as possible, okay? Because we all have our weaknesses, and it's [00:48:00] okay. We all have, there is no, we don't have anybody that's a perfect leader out there in terms of our Catholic schools or anything like that.

We can all strive to do the best job we can, but we all have our weaknesses, and I think when you can find people to get on your team, They kind of complement those weaknesses so that you have a well balanced team. That's a leader. That's how when you're moving from a manager to a leader of a school, where it's not just checking the boxes of things that I needed to get done, it's we're truly leading a vision for our school of where it's going to be in the next five years.

Is where you're truly going to see a successful school

And if you know your strengths and you know your areas of weakness and you recruit accordingly, and when you have your leadership meetings, you can look across and you can go, because you don't do this out loud, but you know it. I'm deficit in this area, but I can look across it somewhat, and they've got that covered, and that's how we, we get a well rounded decision, [00:49:00] because if we hire just mini me's, then that's fantastic for me, but we're not going to get a well rounded decision for all the different types of people that we've got in our school, and just as there are many different types of teachers, for our kids, because kids relate to different teachers.

The same thing we need to have as leaders. We've got to have people that complement us in our decision making. So basically focus on knowing yourself, knowing your strengths and your weaknesses, and then you work around that. So it's almost like that old adage of focus on the things you can control and know what you can't.

Well, know the things that you don't know. and recruit accordingly to help the school and the system.

and learn and learn from them. There's nothing, nothing wrong with saying, listen, as the principal, I'm going to learn from you on how to do this aspect of the job. Because, you know, Hey, you're, I'm not going to say you're, [00:50:00] you're better at it than me. He's about to teach me this, but Hey, I'm going to pay attention to what it is that you're doing.

And so maybe I have an extra tool in the toolbox for, for what I'm moving forward.

That is so true. In terms of all of this, it's like leadership is a constant learning journey and we're actually in the learning game. And we go, if we're not lifelong learners, whether we put our head in a textbook, listening to podcasts, going to professional development, Whatever it is, but if we're not interested in lifelong learning, what are we doing leading a learning organization?

Because that's what we're asking kids to do. Are we modeling that for them as school leaders?

I couldn't agree more on that one. You have people out there listening to this right now. Maybe they're in Australia. Maybe they're in the United States. Maybe they're in Italy. We don't know where they are. But somebody that in five years is going to be leading a Catholic school somewhere. What [00:51:00] advice would you have for them today to help them get started on that journey?

Take those small steps. Take the initiative. Don't be frightened. Whether you're tapped on the shoulder, and if you're tapped on the shoulder, then there's very good reason for that. Always start to shine, you know, you don't need a badge to take on that leadership role because we have so many that are teacher leaders without being formal title.

So do that because that's the first steps I think for everyone.

And for our current principals who are there in their job right now, I'm going to just spoiler alert on this. The day will come when you are going to retire or you're going to step away from your job as a school leader. And that next generation of school leaders is going to come in. There's no greater compliment to you as a leader that when you leave your job, you are leaving it better than you found it.

You are leaving your school in better shape than you found [00:52:00] it and continue to grow. What would you say to them about kind of going out there and inspiring that next generation of leaders?

John, that is so true. I think every leader. would like to, to have that in their armory of I guess in their CV to go, I've left the school that I was at in a better way. Because that is what we honestly believe what we're doing. None of us go to work to do a bad job. And how we do that though is, is the crucial part.

And as you mentioned at the outset, you know, we were both traveling in Italy roughly the same time. Well, I had like six and a bit weeks in Italy, but I took 14 weeks off. So that's a whole term and a little bit more. And I left the school in the hands of someone who is very capable. And the reason she is capable is because she was here for a long time, even before I started.

But We have daily conversation, multiple conversations. [00:53:00] So it's all that alignment. And I know that the school was run perfectly well and had every faith and confidence in the decisions that Michelle had made. So to me, that's important that you have those conversations, you have that learning, you have constant alignment because it's that, that then helps the next stump.

people coming in so whether that happens again or someone else but people see that and they go That works seamlessly, and that's what you want for our staff, students, and the whole family community that we've got at the school.

Couldn't agree more with you. John, I can't thank you enough, so I guess the last question I have to ask you is, if somebody out there listening had one day to spend in Italy, Where would you tell him to go?

For me, probably Assisi. Being a Franciscan school as you drive into Assisi, There's a sign that says the City of Peace and to [00:54:00] me it is so true. It is such a peaceful place and St Francis of Assisi overlooking the region of Umbria. I can understand with all the olive groves in the countryside how peaceful and serene that was.

So to me that was a magnificent experience and certainly tied in and connected with our Franciscan charism here at the school.

I couldn't agree more with you. I, I think Assisi is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in my life. So if you're thinking about going to Italy, if you're already in Italy, traveling there, or maybe if one day you're hoping to get there John and I both agree that not only is Assisi the, the best place in Italy to visit, but with respect to all the other cities, but also that the importance behind developing our next generation of Catholic leaders is so critical to what it is that we do.

John, I want to thank you so much for coming on and, and and discussing this important topic with me. I can't say thank you enough.

Not a problem. [00:55:00] It's been my pleasure, John, and thank you for reaching out to us here in Australia, because I know I listen to your podcast and I heard a couple of fellow colleagues from Brisbane Catholic Education also on your podcast. So, and it's important that school leaders listen to podcasts, you know, whether they're business, education, you know, Australian, American, doesn't matter.

It's experiencing that whole learning for us. So thank you, John, and appreciate being

man. My pleasure. Catholic education in Australia is in good hands, I will tell you that. So, thank you so much for, for being here with me today. I can't say thank you enough.

Thanks, John. Cheers.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. I wanna thank my guest today, John Marinucci, for a great discussion on the future of Catholic school leadership. Really enjoyed it and really enjoyed the time that we get to spend together. I. [00:56:00] If you're interested in one of our mastermind groups, especially that aspiring Administrator's mastermind, don't forget to visit elementary advancement.com/mastermind.

Let's set up a conversation and get you in on our next mastermind group.