The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

Part Two- Leanne Nicol
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast, where we discuss leadership in Catholic education, and I'm John Mahalio, and as always, this podcast is dedicated to enhancing Catholic education and connecting Catholic school leaders worldwide.

Well, if you listened to last week's episode with Leanne Nichol, uh, it was a great conversation about Catholic school culture and how to create that great Catholic school culture in your school. And today we're happy to present the second part of that interview. I know you're going to enjoy it. Uh, Leanna is just such a wealth of information, and so if you haven't had a chance to listen to the first episode, please listen to that first because this builds on some of the topics that we discussed in that first episode.

as always, if this is your first time listening to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast, welcome! Hope you find today's episode enjoyable. If this is not your first time, welcome back! Thanks so much for your continued support. If you have just a quick moment to drop a quick five star review, that's awesome, and if you have [00:01:00] 30 seconds or a minute to give, feel free to drop a quick review in there, leave a positive comment to help us reach other Catholic school leaders worldwide.

So as always, we begin each episode with a quick prayer, so if you'd please join me for a quick prayer to start part two of our interview, I'd really appreciate that. In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, thank you for this opportunity to come together today as your children to talk about creating a great school culture, the second part of this interview with Leanne.

Please bless my guest today, Leanne Nickell, and her work so that we may give your name honor, praise, and glory. We pray that our work will bring your light, love, and mission to our listeners all across the world. We ask this through your Son, Jesus Christ, Amen. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So I want to reintroduce Leanne Nickell, who is my guest today for part two of our interview.

She has over 30 years experience in leading school improvement in faith based schools [00:02:00] and systems across Australia, educational systems, and internationally.

She's passionate about inspiring and supporting school leaders. particularly those in faith based schools and systems. Working from her beliefs that leadership is always about people and building relationships of influence, it isn't schools that improve, but rather people who improve. And we lead who we are.

She is continuing to contribute to the growing numbers of her staff and clients. who are current and future school leaders. In turn, this new generation of fierce hearted leaders is positively and powerfully impacting their staff, communities, and most especially their students learning, engaging, and wellbeing.

Leanne is a teacher, a leader, a coach, and a storyteller. Who has positively impacted tens of thousands of lives of children, teachers, and leaders by improving [00:03:00] competency, capability, and self belief. Creating strong growth mindsets and building self efficacy, responsibility, and accountability for everyone she works with.

She lives her vocation, and as an educational leader, modeling the centrality of Jesus in all aspects of her work and relationships. Leanne has a never say never attitude, a love of her faith, family, friends, and fun. As an individual and business owner, she embodies the wisdom that comes with age, experience, and adversity, and is equipped with professional knowledge and skill to inspire and empower others significantly.

I, I, I

think that, you know, there's so many thoughts that are running through my head, John, as I'm listening to you, but I think one of the things, and again, I'm going to speak into that Catholic space and about how, I suppose for me, what I you know, our Christian story of the life [00:04:00] of Jesus, the life, the death and the resurrection of Jesus.

It's not, you know, so when we're at those critical points or our schools are at those critical points, you know, like organizations can go through life, death and resurrections too, that this is your cultural change often. But there's a part in that beautiful Paschal mystery there of life, death and resurrection that I think that I really relate to and that is, you know, You know, after the death, Jesus went into the tomb, and he was there for three days.

And the tomb is dark. And it's, look, I'm just going to say, it's a bit of a dark space. He was alone. And the way that the gospel stories tell us. So when you're going through a bit of a, you know, a questioning time, it's okay to spend some time in that space. It's okay to go into and, you know what, you know, I get a bit over the metaphor of the caterpillar and the butterfly, [00:05:00] but the you know, the cocoon time is the time of change.

Going into the tomb is a time that, it's not that nothing's happening. it might feel like nothing's happening. There is a lot happening. And that when it's time for that, but wait for it. If you start to enact it too early, then you might miss the opportunity for some new insight for growth to push beyond that threshold of your previous life, of your previous understanding.

So when you go back to school culture, that happens with schools as well. When you've got people, when you've got, as leaders, you might be challenging the status quo of things. People are going to feel uncomfortable about it. You know, Jesus, I'm pretty sure, felt pretty uncomfortable. You know, and I loved your story about when you said to your faculty, what are you leaving behind?[00:06:00]

You know, Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, I don't think he was wanting to leave life as he knew it behind. I think he was in agony. That was, they call it the agony in the garden. It wasn't pleasant. The leaving behind growth. always involves, even great growth always involves a loss, you know, any change always involves some sort of loss.

And I think acknowledging that and seeking strength from that, not going, Oh, we want it to go back the way it's not going to go back the way life does that, life moves and

keeps moving forward.

Yeah. And how is that, but it's our values going, I'm circling right back to where we started our conversation, those enduring values and revisiting how we enact those.

And that's the really critical part because how we enact the values can change.

And I think too, when I often hear people say, I don't like change. Okay. We all have heard people say that. Okay. And the argument I [00:07:00] usually make to people is it the change you don't like or the transition. Okay. Because if the doctor is going to say to me, listen, I need you to eat healthier, and so that you can, I don't know, whatever.

Okay, great. I don't like this transition period. Okay, but when I get to a healthier lifestyle, I probably was going to feel better. I'm probably going to. Okay, but that transition piece in between was no good. I didn't enjoy that.

Yeah.

And so as a school you know, if we're transitioning to, you know, we're at the time of that transition, that change that you're going to get to is probably going to be for the better.

And as long as there's a shared. And I think too, that one of the things I would say too, because I recognize there are leaders out there listening to this. There [00:08:00] are aspiring leaders out there that are listening to this. And I think too, that, Use that time to ask lots of questions because you are learning and so use this opportunity to, Why did this happen?

How are we doing this? And expand because sometimes when we have our aspiring leaders, Maybe it's a person who's just doing an internship. Maybe it's a person who's serving as an assistant principal or dean. And oftentimes they're given the busy tasks. But ask to be brought into something that has a little bit more of a mission based rather than just maintenance.

Take advantage of those opportunities, because I think that's so critical for our aspiring leaders to do,

absolutely. I hope that concept, you know, with our aspiring leaders and our emerging leaders is shifting, you know, in terms of they are invited into those conversations, they get a seat at the table. And yes, we all have administrative tasks that we need to do or those organisational things, [00:09:00] and they need to be attended to.

But, you know, that's going to eat away at your culture. If that is

all you're doing.

if that's the predominant, if you're not working on mission and vision, you know, and you're not enacting your values and you're not. And so part of that is actually you're not only the individuals who are changing and going through a transition, it's recognising what that looks like at an organisational, at a school, whole school level, because you're going to have parents who don't like certain changes.

They'll go like, why can't we, why can't you do it the way that I learned? School. You know, like that worked well because look at me, I can read and write. You know, so being very clear, and I think there's some help, we need to be able to put words around this and articulate it and communicate it. And I sometimes think that, that common language is something that I.

Can hear that people struggle with, our school leadership team struggle [00:10:00] with. And you know what, sometimes you don't even have to make up the language. There's some really good resources out there that can actually at least give you a starting point. So I talk about also, you know, picking something and hanging your hat on it.

Make sure it's good, evidence informed, you know, research based, it fits, you know, you've done your data you've looked at your data, you know there's a need, you don't always have to make it up, you can pick something. So, You know, in Sydney Catholic Schools, for example, and many places in Australia and now internationally, there's the Australian Council of Education and Research has a document called the School Improvement Tool, and it's an inter it's an international tool.

tool. Now what it does, it gives a language around school, how to talk about improvement. It does it gives a little bit of insight about how you can, what good schools, what outstanding schools do. And you [00:11:00] know, there's a framework. Now that, when our schools That's something that Sydney Catholic Schools have hung their hat on and said, this is going to be our common language about how we talk about school improvement.

This is going to be the scope. When we talk about school improvement, this, these nine domains that are in there, plus our Catholic identity and mission, which is a tenth area, there, that's what we're going to talk about. That's the scope. And that's the lens through which when we talk about good schools or what.

That's the lens through which we're all going to look through a common lens through all of that. And you go, great, now we've got a common language. Now you can disagree with it, you can tweak it, but you always have to contextualize it. But there's a fabulous framework that gives the common language and that helps people articulate these things because they are hard to articulate.

They're very hard. It's very hard to [00:12:00] articulate the complexity of schools and school culture.

And to put a, and put a name with it and put a common language to it creates that trust which then is going to move your culture forward. Tenfold. I mean, there's a great book, The Speed of Trust by Covey, and I can't speak enough of that. If you have trust in your building, you watch how much quick, how much faster your culture will zoom ahead right there.

Yeah. And you know what? The, this, the school that I'm working at today that I was talking about earlier on in our conversation that is where the principal focused for probably three years, three years, building trust with each of the stakeholders, like one person at a time. You know, one person at a time one stakeholder group at a time.

Standing in her own, being very clear about the, I suppose, the authority. Also, and I don't do that in a powerful, but being very clear about the authority that [00:13:00] comes with the role of principal. Being very clear with her teachers. about the trust she placed in them and for them to feel confident in standing in their authority they have as a teacher.

Because that gets you know, her school is one where that gets challenged a lot by parents. You know, and look, we find that in our primary schools. Parents are learning how to, about those, roles and responsibilities, and they often learn it by overstepping the mark and telling us how to do our job.

They're learning too and being very clear that she has that. She's got, she and her staff all have that. But that was, it's her that's done it. It's like, not by herself, but she's led it from day one and just built the trust bit by bit. And now the school, to be very honest, is really ready to fly.

It takes time. That

when you do that, yeah, and I think when you do that, the days seem so long,[00:14:00]

Oh yeah.

but the years go by so quick because when you get to that point where you look back on it and you go, Wow, I remember when we were this. I remember when we were just staying, we wanted to do this, and it was just an idea. You will, those long nights, those long days, those, oh, meetings that we had.

But when you get to the point where you're seeing the results, boom. I mean, there's your win right there.

that, that is it. Absolutely. That is like that's. It's really hard to say. It's why school reviews actually, one of the great things about my work that I do in school review is, a big part of any review is looking back and saying, well, what did we try and improve? Where's our evidence? You know, what have we done?

Where's our evidence that we've actually moved? And so part of my role in facilitating those processes or that process in our schools, I get to hear those stories every single day. And. One of the things I also get to hear very [00:15:00] regularly is we just, when we went through that process of looking back and reviewing, it was so empowering for us because we could, we didn't appreciate how far we'd come.

And because, You're right, the days seem really long, they were just like, I've just got to keep turning up and turning up. And we do, but equally as important is that stopping. And that's a cultural thing to do. You know, we're addicted to busyness, you know, people wear it as a military award, you know, it's their purple heart that they're wearing and it's going, I'm so busy, you know, like, I'm so busy, I'm doing this, I'm doing this.

Well, stop. You don't, like, that doesn't, that's not a good thing. And many years ago I decided to replace the word busy with full because I was choosing these things. I was choosing. And so I thought busy has these, a bit of a, in a way, a negative connotation. You know, I'm

Off putting. Yeah.

you know, and I thought, well, you know, It was a time when I, [00:16:00] my kids were younger and at the time I was a single parent.

And yeah, I've, life was, there weren't a lot of free minutes in the day, but I was choosing certain things that were my choice about how I wanted to do life and do my work and do, you know, things that I wanted for my children. And I was thinking, I want to enjoy those choices that I'm making.

So if I keep saying, Oh my God, I'm so busy, I've got to take the kids here and here and whatever. And then I've got to meet. And I've got this to do and whatever, but I was choosing all of that, you know, no one was holding me, there was no big stick over my head saying, this is the sort of principal you've got to be, this is the sort of mother you've got to be.

These were intentional choices that I'd made in my life about wanting to be a principal and then the sort of principal that I wanted to be and being a mother was a choice. I'm going to say being a single parent wasn't entirely a choice but, It was one of those times when, those threshold times, that was a [00:17:00] gift.

It was a gift. It was fantastic. You know, there were many fantastic things about that. And the relationship that I have with my kids is just awesome, which I think possibly is because of that. So, you know, these things these pressure points in, in, in changing culture or that you come across that we were talking about earlier and go and get help.

These pressure points are sometimes gifts that are wrapped up. They're just wrapped up in sandpaper. You know, they're wrapped up in all prickly paper like cactus on the outside. You know, I prefer, I definitely prefer my gifts wrapped up beautifully and tied up with a pretty bow. But, you know, These pressure points are also gifts.

You just, you know, there's a gift in there for you. It's just wrapped up in some pretty ugly exterior.

You just gotta get to it. And once you get to it you'll appreciate it so much more without question. Let me ask this [00:18:00] question because I think that one of the things that, that's such a, and I'm gonna say it's a simple question in that the question itself is so short and quick, but it's such a deep question.

What's the biggest culture killer that you see in schools? You visit a lot of schools what's the one, and I think sometimes as leaders, we don't even realize that it's sucking the life out of our building until it's too late. What's the one thing that you see nowadays that's the biggest culture killer?

I think it's it's a very important question to ask. And I'm going to answer it by saying it's about two things, I think. Two things that work together. One is about a lack of integrity, and that can be personal or [00:19:00] organizational. You know, it can happen at that personal, and that goes back to your comment about trust.

So I think a lack of integrity is also not living out your values. And. I think that's a really thing. So you've got to be very clear about your values and why you're doing that and stand in those shoes, stand in your own shoes and have the articulation to be able to You know, so this is why I'm doing it.

Somebody might, I mean, it's, you know, not everyone's going to agree with you and not everybody's going to be happy. But I think people have respect when you can explain and take it back to your values. So a lack of integrity where you say Okay, if you use trust as a bit of a thing and say, Oh no, I really trust you to do that.

And then there's all these processes that are micromanaging, you know, those don't talk to each other, you know, so it's it's not just about personal integrity. It's also about looking at your [00:20:00] structures and processes and do they enact your values? I think that's a really big culture killer when there's a lack of integrity.

And in that thought, if you are making decisions and everybody agrees with every single thing you're doing, the decisions you're making probably aren't very deep. Okay, they are probably not they are, dare I use the words, they don't lack much substance to them. But if they're easy decisions that everybody's on board with, and that's everything, and everybody's always happy, You're probably not making very hard decisions and you're probably not asking the right questions.

And as a leader, can I tell you one of the best things is when people, you know, that you need to listen to all the voices, including the voice of dissent.

yes

and because the voice of dissent is actually makes you reflect on your own values. Why am I doing it? You know, people are allowed to do that.

We're human beings. We're not always going to agree. So I'm going to say to [00:21:00] you, when you've got a lack of I like to call them robust conversations. So those conversations where people are allowed to disagree or challenge you know, if you've got conversations that actually.

Structures that aren't enabling people to question, to challenge, and to disagree. Because that's going to make us all better. Because it's going to make us all, so my other point was about the integrity, but it was also about reflection.

yes,

So I was going to say holding a mirror up. And to me, you know, it probably feeds into our conversation about busyness too.

Those times to just pause, Let's press the pause button on it. You talked about that when you said after COVID, what do you know, let's stop for a second before we just go right, it's over, let's march on. Stop for a second. What are we leaving behind? then you talked to also, then you talked about the good [00:22:00] things.

So to me, like, there's just those three little quick things, process that you can put around, you know, let's stop for a moment. This is what we're trying to do. Let's have a look at what we, or this is what we're trying to achieve. This is what we're on about. What are the, let's, what do we need to stop doing?

What do we need to start doing more of?

yep,

What or what do we need to start doing that we're not doing, and what do we need to continue doing? So that, that's a beautiful process. Easy, easy as anything, and there's a

are we doing that we can do even better?

Yeah, well, exactly. So, you know, there's a process to break people into groups, get them to share ideas around.

And when they tell you what you need to stop, you need to listen to it.

Yes, 100%, 100%. I always say that I had a advisory committee president who told me many years ago, she said when you hear it once, you take note of it. When you hear it twice, you put it really on your radar. Once you hear it for a third time. That better be something that you're paying a lot of [00:23:00] attention to.

Okay? Because once you've heard it, you know, we always have that one person who if you gave everybody 100, they would want 200. Okay. And so you're always going to have that one outlier, no matter what you do. But when you're hearing it multiple times, you better start taking note of why this conversation is happening over and over again, or else guarantee is going to come back to haunt you.

absolutely. So, to answer your question about what are culture killers I think it is a lack of integrity and, And a lack of ability to hold the mirror up,

Yeah. 100 percent on

hold it to yourself. And that's the reflection or the, you know, it's the lack of ability or lack of time to do that. And I think that when people create those times, those create those spaces.

We need to create those spaces, and to me those spaces need to be safe spaces, that people feel comfortable and free, that they can be honest and true. But [00:24:00] also they need to be spaces that are, in a way, not filled with what's the next job that we've got to

Right. Right.

It's about, let's be honest. Pause. So while school review at the moment in Sydney Catholic schools is once every five years, you know, you don't have to wait for a school review.

It's very important to build on that. Just as we do for our students, let's just pause for a moment before we move on to that new concept, and let's go back, what is it that you know, and listening to the kids about, okay where do they not feel like they've reached mastery in, in certain skills or knowledge?

It's so important to do that not just keep filling things out, you know, with cognitive load theory will tell us that it's just not, you just can't keep, we need time to be able to process and sift. That's the reflection. So I think

we hit that, and we hit that point of diminishing returns if we don't with, you know, in terms of what we have to do. In terms of a and I feel [00:25:00] like all the questions I'm asking, tell me about a bad but I'm going to ask this question in two ways, because I think this is important. And I think if people are listening to this. And it's of interest to them. Maybe they're wondering how they can improve their culture but sometimes we're, as leaders, the last person to know that our culture is not good unfortunately. And so what are some things that, in your mind that you, I mean, you visit lots of schools. What are some ways that you can know your culture is not in a good place?

But what are some other things that you can look at and see, Wow, our culture is really in a great place. And I can tell because here's some things that are really indicating that.

that's a really good question. So I think one of the really important things is that I see are where schools have very clear vision and mission. Now, every school that I think I've ever worked in have vision and mission statements. Usually they're relatively visible. You know, they're not just on their website.

You walk into the school, they'll be there, they're in the documentation. [00:26:00] But are they enlivened and are they brought to life? And are they enacted? Now, some of our schools, And I think you and I have talked about in the States, it's the same. Some of our schools that have these very strong cultures that were built by some of our religious orders.

And I'm thinking of the Jesuits, for example, who have done, you know, in Australia, all of our schools have had, most of our Catholic schools were started by Jesuits. some amazing religious order. Those ones who have been able to maintain the charism of that order, even beyond when they've had religious staff, and enacting that and interpreting the signs of the times, that seems to me to be one of those really signs of a vibrant culture that, and it's not just, and I'll give you an example of one of our schools that I was in, and part of [00:27:00] review is we do a lot of focus groups, we talk to the parents, we talk to the kids, we talk to the staff, etc.

And Often our, and this is, this was a Marist school, and I am going to say, in our Marist schools, the way that the staff, not only the leaders, and the leaders, these leaders are not religious you know they're not Marist brothers or Marist sisters these days, they're lay staff But the way they can deeply talk and deeply enact that whole essence of what a Marist education means from the leaders, the teachers can all say, this is why we do this because it's a Marist school.

And then the kids can do it too. And the parents can do it. Now, they all do it to different degrees. You know, I think that is a sign of a really rich culture. Now, you don't have to have a Marist culture, but when you can have, or a Dominican culture or [00:28:00] whatever religious order, many of, any of them that have done such, made such an incredible contribution to education.

However, it's about really understanding, and I'm going, actually, what I'm going to say first of all is really understanding the word mission And that's the purpose. What's your reason for doing it? And essentially, can I just say, I don't think your mission changes. You, the way you articulate it will change, but your mission, like as Catholic educators, Jesus gave all of us a mission.

You know, go out and create disciples among all nations, among all people. That's our job. That's our job. That hasn't changed. Sydney Catholic Schools mission is to know and love Christ through learning. So it's very clear. To know and love Christ, that goes back to making people disciples, which is what Jesus set us to be, and how do we do it?

Because we're an educational institution, we do it through learning. To me that's a very clear [00:29:00] mission. Even in a non religious organization, isn't your mission something around making a difference to kids? You know, like, it's, emission hasn't changed. It's the way we articulate it. So when people change the emission statement every, they go, like, why?

Really, has, just the way you articulate it in a contemporary context changes. So I think that's one of those things that is a really, a school's that true to their mission, they know why they're doing it, they know why they are aligned to that. They deeply believe it, they're passionate about that.

And that they've got the language that they can speak to and they know what that looks like and the, in the authority that their role as a teacher, they know as teachers. The interactions they have with the students are reflective of that mission and that vision. So, I think, That's, they're the signs where [00:30:00] I think you say we've got a good culture.

If you're talking about a school, you know, our schools are all learning organisations, when the conversations are about learning, when they're, and you listen, not necessarily structured conversations, when you sit in a staff room and you listen to the conversations, are they, what, listen to those, are those conversations respectful of the mission and mission. Or are they trashing and pulling down and working? Are they talking about kids and their learning? Are they talking about how they can, you know, understand a student better and get more from them because they know the teacher that's sitting next to them with a coffee they seem to be able to bring forth that more with their kids.

If these are what the informal conversations are listen in on them, listen in. Of course, we don't want to, but I think when they start to shift, listening to conversations, when they [00:31:00] shift from what is being taught to who is doing the work,

and,

then you know that culture. These are the signs if you've got a culture that you want to shift and make it more aligned with our mission, anybody's mission and improvement.

It's listen to those conversations and the ones that you provide. Yes, we all need to know what, we've got to have a knowledge and a skill base, but we've deeply got to know who. we're working with, and we've got to know how that we turn up in that space. So I think there's a shift from the what to the who.

and you are not, and I think sometimes we as school leaders, we want that scratch off lotto ticket, we want it fixed now, today, okay? And sometimes that's just not realistic, okay? It's going to take time. It's the [00:32:00] law of the harvest, okay? I mentioned Covey a lot, the law of the harvest, okay? And if you're not familiar with what that is, you can Google it and figure it out, but essentially, You would not plant your crops and water them and expect that they are going to be grown the next day.

That is an unrealistic expectation. You have to get the land ready and care for it and water and weed things out so that at the end of the season the harvest is there and the bounty is there. And so, It takes time. So, so if, especially for those administrators or those principals who are in maybe a first year,

Yeah.

on the job and you're thinking, oh my goodness gracious, because we all have that honeymoon period where everything is just glorious.

Okay. It is glorious. And then boom, we hit some turbulence and it's like, wow, I don't know what I'm doing. We've all been there before, and I promise you Leanne promises you it, one, this too shall pass you know, it, it shall pass but I guess the thing too, and I've said that don't feel like you [00:33:00] have to go at this alone so please take care of yourself on that one and don't go at that alone, because I promise you, there is another principal out there, Who has been in those shoes.

We all have.

those shoes 100%. And so, you are you are writing a book. And,

writing a book.

you are. So tell me a little bit about that, because I, and I know the The title of the book has something very personal, so I don't want to ruin it, but go ahead and tell me about it, because I can see the sign behind you, but the folks that are listening to this can't.

So tell me about the book you're writing a little bit here.

So my book the working title, I sort of hope it will be the final title too because it is called The Fierce Hearted Leader and it's a book for educational leaders and at whatever stage in their journey that they're at. And So it's, I'm going to say, you know, you've got to write one book before you can write two.

However, my plan is to write three. And it goes back to actually, I'm [00:34:00] going to just go touch very briefly back on my belief around the Trinity again, and talk about that because I think as school leaders, we've got the people of who we are. You know, we bring who we are that, so we bring that person to the role of and so I talk about this in the book number one is going to be all about the person of the leader and the importance of being a happy, healthy human being, wholesome human being committed to their own personal development and committed to their own professional development and and the importance of that.

So it taps into, I guess, my book about the Fierce Hearted Leader is hopefully going to be very affordable. firming and give permission to people to have what we all seek in our life is balance. That we're not, you know, that we, you know, it feeds into the it addresses the issue of the workload [00:35:00] and the stress associated with being a principal, but it doesn't labour it.

It's saying, well, let's move beyond that. Like, yes, no, but it's actually about how we interpret all of those. And it's about why we do those things and goes to the basic looking at our basic human needs the integration of ourselves as human beings. And and it talks about, you know, the what, the why and the how being a fierce hearted leader.

That's what it talks to. I have, and I will repost actually on my LinkedIn, anybody who wants to connect. I'd love to connect with people. And I'd love to hear people's thoughts about it because the book will have story in there. I know you've had Anne Marie Moore on your podcast before. Yeah, and Anne Marie is is going to be featured in my book, her story of her fist hearted leaders, about how she enacts that.

Because I don't know if you're but Anne Marie was on my [00:36:00] staff, and weren't you? Five years ago and in fact I think that was her first segue into the world of leadership, of school leadership. She was, took an acting role on my leadership team in a very little school. So, yeah, so anyway and now she is a very accomplished school leader in her own right.

I'm so proud of her journey. But I have great, I'm just in awe of her. So it'll have stories, little stories of fierce hearted leaders in and through it. It's about, and it's about us. The What is a Fierce Hearted Leader. It's about why that's important and it's about some how tos. You know, how to achieve this because there is no magic wand and yeah, but it talks particularly, I'm going into my target audience, isn't just going to be Catholic leaders, but it will certainly be infused.

It's about me being a peace hearted leader and what I bring to that. And part of that is I am a Catholic. And so my [00:37:00] faith is a very much part of how I turn up and who I am. It's one. one of the components that's very integrated. So it will speak very specifically into my values about that because I know they're values that I share with a lot of leaders who work in Catholic education.

However, the concepts will speak to any school leader.

Well, I can't wait to see it, and you'll have to let me know when it comes out, and I'll be sure to post it on there as well. Sydney Catholic Schools is so blessed to have you, and just all The amazing work that you're doing. I know that I've enjoyed our conversations and and this one as well.

And so, I appreciate you getting up. I know you had to get up very early to record this podcast. I'm so grateful for the time that you've given today and all of the helpful words of wisdom that you have for our Catholic school leaders out there. So, Leanne, thank you so much for your time today.

I really appreciate it.

My pleasure. And I'm passionate about the work that the leaders do. I it's an amazing [00:38:00] job. It's the best job in the world, even when you don't think it is. It is, and it is such an important job and God bless you all.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Leanne. I appreciate it.

Yeah. Thank you,

John.

Well, I hope you've enjoyed this interview today with Leanne Nichol. hopefully you've learned something about them to help you as a Catholic school leader.

Check out elementaryadvancement. com for more tips, articles, and tools that you can use as a Catholic school leader, including our keys to a successful Catholic school. Yours free at elementaryadvancement. com forward slash keys.