The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders podcast, where we discuss leadership in Catholic education.

I'm your host, Jon Mahalio, and this podcast, as always, is dedicated to enhancing Catholic education and connecting Catholic school leaders worldwide.

Well, today we have a really great episode, and this episode, was such a great interview that we've broken this up into two parts. Uh, we originally scheduled some time. And ended up having such a great conversation and, uh, just some great, great topics that just continued to, to come up that it's been broken up into two podcasts at this point.

So this is part one of my podcast with Leanne Nickel, and we'll tell you a little bit more about her here in just a little bit. If this is your first time tuning into the Catholic School Leaders Podcast, welcome! Hope you find today's episode enjoyable and educational and help you grow as a Catholic school leader.

If you are a return listener, thank you so much for continuing to support the Catholic School Leaders podcast. I hope you find them beneficial, I hope you continue to grow, and [00:01:00] just know that all of you are in my prayers always for Catholic education to continue growing in your school. So, how are things going in your school?

Well, I've been on LinkedIn over the past few months and welcome you to please connect with me on LinkedIn so that we can continue to grow and learn together as Catholic school leaders. I'll put that link in the show notes today. Please feel free to reach out to me. I'd love to connect with you. I'd love to see the great things that are happening in your school.

Now, one of the things I see a lot of in the news that people share is they're hiring new principals, or they're looking for new advancement directors, or admission directors, or they're looking for questions to be answered. And one of the things that I believe every Catholic school leader needs in order to be successful are six keys.

Now, there's a free guide that I offer on my website, elementaryadvancement. com. It includes some great leadership questions for you to discuss in these areas that are these six keys. I want to give this to you for [00:02:00] absolutely free. You just visit elementaryadvancement. com forward slash keys K E Y S. You can get your free copy of the keys to a successful Catholic school today.

I promise you that it will lead to some great conversations, great discussion amongst your leadership team, amongst your teachers, amongst your community, amongst your advisory committees. really help you hone in on those areas that, uh, are strengths in your school and maybe areas of opportunities for you.

And so again, uh, take a look at that elementaryadvancement. com forward slash keys. And if when you're on there and you're looking at those keys to a successful Catholic school, uh, if you feel like in helping in any way, don't hesitate to reach out. It's been great, great talking to just leaders all over the world and just hearing about what's happening in their school.

It's so enjoyable for me and it's just so rewarding for me to just get to know leaders from all over the world. So keep up the great work. Now, as I mentioned before, if this is your first time tuning in, Welcome, hope you enjoyed [00:03:00] today's episode. If this is, uh, not your first time and you're enjoying the Catholic School Leaders podcast, I encourage you to please drop a quick review, drop a quick, uh, five star rating on there, really helps out.

And if, and if you have 30 seconds to drop a quick comment on there, please feel free to do so. It really helps to us to reach more Catholic school leaders just like yourself all over the world. So, can't say thank you enough for that. And also, I will say to you, if there's an episode, uh, or a topic that you'd like to have discussed on future episodes, don't hesitate to reach out to me, uh, john at elementaryadvancement.

com. Would love, love, love to hear what it is that you want to know about because this podcast is for you and to help you grow in your school. So thank you so much for that.

As we begin this episode, I want to stop real quick. If you would just please pause and join me for a quick prayer, we'll say in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Heavenly Father, thank you for this opportunity to come [00:04:00] together today as your children to talk about creating a great school culture.

Please bless my guest today, Leanne Nicole, and her work, so that together we may give your name honor, praise, and glory. We pray our work will bring your light, love, and mission to listeners all throughout the world. We ask this through your Son, Jesus Christ. Amen. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Amen. Well, as I said before, I want to introduce my guest today, Leanne Nickel. She has over 30 years experience in leading school improvement in faith based schools and systems across Australia, educational systems, and internationally.

She's passionate about inspiring and supporting school leaders. particularly those in faith based schools and systems. Working from her beliefs that leadership is always about people and building relationships of influence, it isn't schools that improve, but rather people who improve. And [00:05:00] we lead who we are.

She is continuing to contribute to the growing numbers of her staff and clients. who are current and future school leaders. In turn, this new generation of fierce hearted leaders is positively and powerfully impacting their staff, communities, and most especially their students learning, engaging, and wellbeing.

Leanne is a teacher, a leader, a coach, and a storyteller. Who has positively impacted tens of thousands of lives of children, teachers, and leaders by improving competency, capability, and self belief. Creating strong growth mindsets and building self efficacy, responsibility, and accountability for everyone she works with.

She lives her vocation, and as an educational leader, modeling the centrality of Jesus in all aspects of her work and relationships. Leanne has a never say never attitude, a love of her [00:06:00] faith, family, friends, and fun. As an individual and business owner, she embodies the wisdom that comes with age, experience, and adversity, and is equipped with professional knowledge and skill to inspire and empower others significantly.

Leanne, welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. Welcome Leanne, it's great to see you.

Thank you very much, John. It's lovely to be here.

So you're up bright and early down in Australia today as we're doing this because we had to find a time that worked for both of us in terms of the time difference. So you are up bright and early getting ready to start your day. So, thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate it.

my great pleasure to be here.

So we're going to talk today about a topic that is so important in schools, and I would argue this is probably one of the most important topics to create a great Catholic school, and that is school culture. And so I'm really excited about this because I know this is something that you have a passion for.

You've got a book [00:07:00] coming up about, just all about great leadership and culture, and I'm really excited to hear about all this. So first and foremost, let me ask you this. How do you define culture? What is it and why is it so critical for a Catholic school to have? Yeah,

Well, thank you, John. That's a fabulous question to open out on. I think for me, I like to have some things that are pretty simple and straightforward. We can read books about culture and we know about the importance. We know when it's good, we know when it's not good. But to be able to be very succinct about it and say, well, what is it?

Because it can feel very intangible. But. It's also so important. So for me, I just, my working definition of culture is the way we do things around here. But I am going to expand on that a little bit. I don't think I'm the first person that has said that, by the way, but it's just something that works for me and always has, as well as being the way we do things around here.

I also want to say that in any [00:08:00] school, it's but particularly a Catholic school or a Catholic context. It is also about who we are and how we turn up for one another. And there is a particular worldview around that in a, with a, in a faith based school, but any school in a sense, because we've all got values.

Every school has key values. So when those values are enacted in how we as individuals turn up, not just It's not just us as leaders, but how we all turn up for one another. So it's how we do things, but it's that how we turn up for each other as well. What's the way that, that we just enact life, school life?

That's what I think culture is.

and I think it's really important to distinguish, too, because I hear exactly what you're saying, and I agree with you, but there's somebody out there going, Oh, that's the way we've always done it. I know you always say never to say that's the way [00:09:00] we've always done it. There's a big difference between how we do things and that's the way we've always done it.

Huge difference between those two. Because I think one of them sets a culture and one of them kills it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the thing is the part of culture, like how we do things around here and how we turn up for each other. I think the thing that actually binds those two things together are values. And how those values, are enacted. And then the integrity as individual people, as an organisation, but also the structures, the processes, the programs, the policies, all of those things.

The protocols that we have, Are they aligned to the vision for the school and are they aligned to the values? And are those values, here's another thing, are those values we tend to think that values are enduring. And in a Catholic school, of course, we've got values that are very much rooted in the gospel, 2, 000 years [00:10:00] old.

But the way they're enacted is very different in 2024 than it was in Jesus time. But similarly, There are also cultural values. We all live in a culture and in a society, and there are society values that actually shift over time. And a really good example of that is the concept of how we view students and children.

And in my grandmother's day, of course, children were seen and not heard that expression. Good luck for that, if you're working in. like, I don't know, that's not a concept. We actually, these days, have a more contemporary view and a respectful view of children as complete, wholesome human beings that we need to listen to.

And that, yes, they need guidance. And yes, they need our support in growing and developing. And they need to be challenged. But, That concept of the value of children and the [00:11:00] value of students and listening to them deeply and understanding them, that's a different value than in my grandmother's day.

Because while they valued kids, they were also, how they were enacted was very different. So sometimes I think it the, our core values also just need to be revisited to say, are these, do these still hold true? Do these still hold true?

and our core values, because I think one of the things that I hear from a lot of schools is, so what's your core values? This. Okay. Does everybody know that? And part two is that what your core values are, really, or is that what you want them to be? Because so many times, we're putting our core values out as what we hope we are, okay?

And not where we're really at right now. And if we're in that delusional state of what our core values are, but really they're not, nothing's gonna kill a culture quicker than that.

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things, John, in a very practical way part of the role that I have with Sydney Catholic Schools is I work with schools, [00:12:00] support schools in their school review process, and I facilitate schools. school improvement with them, but also then work, once the review process is over, work with them on strategic planning.

I can't tell you the amount of schools, many schools, one of their key goals is, their strategic improvement goal is to operationalise those values. Now that sounds very clinical, but unless you can be very practical and say what does that look like in practice, you know, yes, our value is justice. For example, a lot of our schools will have social justice as a really key value, or community or faith, or whatever.

But what does that look like? How is, what does that look like when you take it into action? And how do you operationalize it? What are the structures and processes and the programs and the policies and procedures that, that actually Unpack that for people because [00:13:00] otherwise, we're all walking around and we all go, yeah, I value that, you know, you value what I do, but unless you and I have a conversation about what that looks like for you and what that looks like for me, you know, we've got to engage and engage with one another and we've got to talk about it because in a school, you've got to have everybody aligned that it looks the same way.

in practice. I think one of the key things that we've got in our that, that is very foundational, but it's actually incredibly helpful, is that in a Catholic school, we've got the gospel stories that actually are a common starting point for understanding and having a shared context of values. So if we were talking about justice, for example the scripture reading about the sheep and the goats and separate, you know, that when you were there when you saw a need, you stepped in and then the other lot didn't.

Okay, that's one, okay, there's a starting point. So nobody's going to argue with the gospels. In a Catholic school, in a Catholic [00:14:00] school. But we've all got different understandings of those. So, you know, it's about how we interact and that respectful, that if you've got a different view of that, it doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, but we've got to find a common ground to meet, to understand and then to enact.

And our core values are non-negotiables. Okay. That, I mean, and I think that's the thing for our school leaders out there, if you are gonna say something is a core value that's a non-negotiable for you it is nothing we're bending on. It's nothing we go again. I mean, that is who we are. And I think that's something I can't stress enough, is if you can name those core values of things that, that you know, are just non-negotiables for your school and for your school community, what are they?

Yeah, and in Australia, we have at a national level, similar to the States and many other places, In the whole country, there are many different education systems, you know, whether they're state, whether they're Catholic, you know, there's multiple Catholic education systems. [00:15:00] Every state has its own education system.

But we also, at a national level, have the goals of Australian schooling that come out every 10 years. And the two values that underpin that are excellence and equity. And so, you know, that's a non negotiable for every school. But what that looks like, what that looks like and how that is enacted, it could be quite different because of the context of the school, but also because of the human beings that operate in that school.

But those two, the values themselves are non negotiable.

And I think, too, that when you have your core values, and this is the way I used to always think of it, and still do for that matter, but think of where you're at currently, and your goal is to get those core values to be aligned for every person in your school community. And once you reach that alignment piece, everybody goes, great, we're all moving in the same direction.

Then you're looking at integrated, [00:16:00] so that those core values are integrated in everything that you're doing. Kind of the comparison I give people is this kind of like in, in Finding Nemo the movie where they say, you know, there's the chaos, them trying to cross the pond, and everybody's going a different way.

The second thing is like, hey, which way did this happen? And everybody points in the same direction and things like that. But the scene with like the turtles, where they're in the funnel there. Everybody's aligned and we're all going in the same direction, but maybe we're getting off with that integration.

Everybody's working together to make the shape look the same and point the same direction and everything like that. And if you can get to that point where your culture's core values are integrated, I guarantee you'll have a, you'll have a school that is full every year.

And I think we call that, that the organization, we talk about individuals being in flow and the importance of that. But I think it's also, it's about when you're coming from a place of your own integrity. A nice little story is I know this is a podcast, but I have behind me on camera, [00:17:00] a pair of sparkly shoes.

That's not an accident they're there, but because they are there because I, we've all been through stages where we've been challenged to stand in our own truth and our own integrity. And it reminds me of a time when I was challenged about that. And in fact, what I was trying to do was fit in.

with a particular culture and a particular, and I was making myself, I wasn't coming from a place of standing in my own truth or standing in my own integrity. And it was, you know, I actually felt sick when I was going to work. I felt really, oh, like this is horrible. I just wanted to hide in a corner.

Anyway, I had one pair at the time of sparkly shoes and one, and I bought them for a particular occasion. They're not my normal work shoes. And This particular day I was feeling very unmotivated to go to work and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to put those sparkly shoes on because they make me feel good.

And and so I, I did. And of course, [00:18:00] the people that work were going, Oh, very nice shoes, Leanne, you know, whatever. Because clearly people don't normally wear high stiletto sparkly shoes every day to their education jobs. And so, And it made me feel good, but it didn't more than make me feel good. It reminded me that's who I am.

I am a bright, sparkly, big personality, human being. I have things to offer. I believe in the work that we're doing and I'd had been making myself small. So now the shoes are there to remind me to stand in my own sparkle all the time and let it shine. And the reason I was making myself small was because I was concerned about how other people, I was trying to fit in with other people.

And so now I sort of go, I'm just going to stand in my own sparkle. And if some of that sparkle happens to, you know, which it does. Hopefully [00:19:00] go from Australia over to the States and through the podcast and land on people's shoulders. And if it makes them feel good, how fabulous is that? But you know, if it doesn't, they can just dust it off.

It's not my problem. Stan, and that's what I think we need as students. schools to do. We need to know our value. We need to know what it is. To be very clear about it and proud about it. To get that alignment and flow that you were talking about and to stand in it. For our Catholic schools, that means standing in that space.

Our point of difference is the word Catholic. That's our point of difference that we offer in a democracy. We offer choice of education and choice. And for those who choose unashamedly, yes, we've got to be good schools. Our Vatican documents tell us we've got to be good schools and we have to be faith based, value based.

And if those two things, that excellence and equity [00:20:00] through a Catholic worldview do not stand, that's our sparkle. And when we stand in that it's hard work sometimes, you know, it's hard work as an individual, let alone when you've got a school of 2, 000 kids and 200 staff and getting everybody to stand in their own sparkle.

Well, that's and then the organizationally the same one, it's hard work and it's not easy, but it's the bit that binds us together. And you know, the other thing, I think it's the bit that binds us together. Ignites our passion

Yes,

and it's that's what gets me out of bed every morning and keeps me motivated because I feel I've got energy and vitality for my job and for the difference that we make to those children who walk through our schools every day.

I love it. And I love the story with that because I can see the, and I know that our listeners can't see it, but I can literally see the purple sparkly shoes behind you. What

Well, [00:21:00] those particular ones are gold, but I figured that if I was going to use my story, my one pair of sparkly shoes started to get a bit shabby. So very recently I jumped on and bought a few new pairs. So, they're my newer pair. So yeah, those ones are pink.

Awesome. Awesome. Okay. See, that's what I'm seeing there. And so, when we're talking about culture, I think one of the things that a lot of people think about when they think culture, is they go, we have a great culture at our school. They go, great what, tell me what makes up a great culture at your school.

Well, I let my staff do this. Well, is that creating culture, or are you giving them a perk? Are you giving them something as like a little bit of a reward type thing? Where do you see the difference between a culture, creating a good culture, and just giving your teachers, your faculty, your students a perk that could actually deter the culture if you're not careful?

Yeah. It, and it can actually it can actually [00:22:00] be trivial. It's like, yeah, okay. That. That happens, but, and they say that they care about us because we have a coffee van. That's you know, we have a coffee van on Friday. So they say they care about us and they say that they don't really, you know, that's just, so it can be very it's about how it's done and it's also about who.

So I think the difference for me between that is that it's about tapping into people's fierce hearts. We all have them. We all have them. You know, we have a sense, and whether you are, whatever sort of school base, most teachers that I meet, the vast majority of teachers that I meet and have met over 40 something years, which would be tens of thousands, they all feel that they want to make a difference.

That's why they go into a school. They want to make a difference to kids. And, or as leaders, we want to make a difference to [00:23:00] our staff so that our staff can make a difference to the kids. And in my role at the moment with Sydney Catholic Schools, I work with school principals generally and leadership teams, and I work to make a difference to kids.

with them so they can make a difference to their staff. The end game is always about making a difference to those little ones or bigger ones who walk through our door every single day. So I think the thing is, when people, the people, that's why we go, that's why most of us go into education. That's what's in our heart.

There's something, there's a bigger calling there. Now, We call it vocation. That's what joins us together. We believe it's part of what God is calling us to do. And and we feel it deep in our spirit. We feel it deep in our spirit. But that can get very jaded. And I know I, my absolute passion at the moment is the well being of our school leaders.

We all know coming out of COVID, the well being of our students is very [00:24:00] paramount and very in our faces. And we can see that and not sure what it's like in other places, but certainly in Australia, the wellbeing of teachers has come under the community concern. We know that we're facing teacher shortages.

All of these things, but it's also that people talk about the workload and these are all true. All of these things are true about workload and administration. The people in our communities who are holding this all together for our kids, for parents who are very, and for our and for our teachers, the people holding it together are our leaders.

They're the ones holding it together. So I'm incredibly, and they, and in Australia, the ACU study on the well being of our leaders, the data on that is pretty horrifying about the well being of our leaders. So, we know, so, so getting back to your question about perks, what we know is that [00:25:00] when we have when I feel energized, you know, about getting out of bed in the morning, when I know that what I'm called to be deeply in my heart that this is not hard to get out of bed in the morning.

It's not hard to do the work. So it's because that's so aligned to my personal values. So when you're in a school where all of that is aligned, people work really hard. So the difference in, and they're happy to. And in fact, I'm off to a school today that I'm working with, you know, throughout our year.

They've done their school review. We spent some time doing their strategic plan yesterday. And we're finishing that off today. And when I go into that particular little school those teachers are working really hard. Probably harder than many other schools that I've seen. But they are so energized.

They're so energised, they're not complaining about workload. They're saying, can we have some more [00:26:00] opportunities to lead because we feel so passionate about what we do. It's tapping into something that's bigger than just ticking the administrative boxes. So that's the culture. How is that established? I 100 percent know because that principal has worked very hard to change that culture and then to build that culture because it wasn't always the case in the last five years.

I know that because that's part of their review story. What she's done though is just 100 percent focus. on modeling that as in who she is, being very clear about values, and then enacting those herself. And in her own words, she had some staff that, and challenging when she saw people who weren't enacting those.

She's a very gentle person. She's a very capable person, that she did it very gently, because that's her style. Her shoes, she stood in. But she had people leave the school [00:27:00] because they didn't, weren't, didn't feel that it was aligned in the direction. Why wasn't it aligned? Because the staff you know, felt that what she was asking was too much.

She's got a staff now, she's been able to employ her staff, she's got a staff who are beautifully aligned, that she feeds their minds, she feeds their bodies. You know, I was there for lunch yesterday. We had a very nice lunch and great coffee.

Always good. Always good.

yeah, but you know, if that's where it stops, at the, you know, let's all wear casual clothes on Friday or let's all, you know, we're going to have a coffee van.

If it just stops at feeding people's bodies and the outside, you do have to, you know, you look after them, but you look after their emotions and you look after their spirit and you look after, well, definitely their minds but in a way that's kind and that's nice for them. You, you look after that whole person and you model that.

So I think that's how culture is built. They [00:28:00] then do it in turn for their students.

Right.

And they do it for the parents in that school, and that's who they turn up for. And so it's, culture is not only what you do, it's how you show up for one another. How you show up for yourself, first of all, but also how you show up for one another in community.

And if your gas tank is empty, you're not going to be able to show up for others. Okay. And I once heard that it said, have you ever been too busy when you're driving to stop for gas? Okay. And when you think about it from that

beautiful.

You go, no, that doesn't make sense because if I don't stop for gas, my car is not going to get me to where I want to be.

But yet with our own well being as leaders, we do that all the time.

can I just say, yeah, it's taken, look, that took me, sometimes I think in life I'm a bit of a slow learner, John, but that took me a really long time to learn that because I just, I do have a lot of energy and I just thought it was this [00:29:00] unlimited source for many years. And I didn't, I had to learn how that showed up because when I was younger it used to show up and I'd get a migraine you know, or I'd, for many teachers it shows up because they get sick during the school holidays.

So, you know, and I had to learn that these were signs, these they were just when things, when the attack was, you know, the red light had been on for a long time. And then the migraine happened and it said you need to stop. So, you know, I don't get that anymore. I don't do that anymore because I'm, it's that self awareness, that fierce heartedness, I call it about understanding yourself first and understanding how those things show up in your body and how they show up in your energy and your mindset and all of those things together and how they show up in yourself.

Spirit. And I'm, you know, very conscious of that everyone is, we're all spiritual human beings, whether we have a religious affiliation or not. But [00:30:00] it's not something that we necessarily, we go, Oh yeah, well, I'm not religious. So, you know, like I don't, Look after my spirit. Well, spiritual, everyone, our humanness has a spirituality.

So, and even for those of us who do have a religious belief and affiliation, it, you know, from a religious point of view, it's, there's a spirituality, but there's also a cognitive, you know, we need to know about our faith. There's an emotional side to our faith. There's all of that. And, you know, that's talked about in the Gospels.

Quite a lot, actually, that, that whole connection to love God with your whole heart, your whole mind, your whole soul, you know, these, it was it's about being a fully integrated and that coming to wholeness, I think, is the religious language we would put around it. And the more secular language is being just a happy, healthy, well balanced human beings.

And as a parent. Or, you know, future grandparent. They're the sort of people, I want happy, wholesome, you [00:31:00] know, obviously trained, capable people. That I want happy, wholesome, decent human beings to be teaching my grandchildren. Yeah. Yeah?

And I think to the one, one of the things that I think cause one, I remember with my faculty, I said when COVID had ended, it was, okay let's kind of have this day where we say, what are you leaving behind from COVID? Okay, well, there are things I think from COVID that we all said, I, you know what, I've been doing this and I don't have to, like, I, when I really consider the reasons I was doing this, When COVID hit, I wasn't able to do whatever this was, and now I kind of was forced to change things, and I like this better, okay?

This new thing. But then there's a lot of things, too, that I think we took from COVID that we go, you know what? This worked well, and I'm going to do more of this. And I think one of the things that I saw from COVID was connectability, okay? You and I would have Probably 10 years ago and I recognize there's video [00:32:00] conferencing that was, what took place then, but I think COVID really brought that to light.

That you can jump on a group with some other leaders to talk about what's going on in your school or what you need help with. And you didn't have to leave your office. Okay. Whereas before it was like, well, we all have to find a day where we can meet together. And I don't have time for this but you can do these things from, so I think taking care of yourself and I agree with you fully.

And I think too, that you mentioned our principals are they're exhausted because I recognize,

they're tanks that red lights are on. The red light is on.

yes. And so, so principals, if you're out there you know, make sure you're taking care of yourselves stop for gas in terms of things. Don't let that red light come on to the point where you can't function anymore.

Whether it's getting connected with a group that's locally or, you know, any of it, there's a lot of them out there for you. So, really look into that and take care of yourselves for sure.

I want to say thank you so much to our sponsor for today's episode, Elementary Advancement [00:33:00] Solutions. What is Elementary Advancement Solutions? Well, their goal is to help you grow Catholic education at your school. We know how lonely the job of a Catholic school administrator can be, whether you're a principal, Aspiring Principal, Assistant Principal, Advancement Director, or a Recruitment Director.

Everything just so go, go, go, go, go, and people forget that our leaders are human beings as well and need support in our jobs. So Elementary Advancement Solutions was created to do just that. Maybe you're a school whose enrollment might be struggling. Maybe you're finding that your fundraising goals just keep coming up short.

Well, each year they work with a small number of schools to help them reach their goals. Just really proud of the work that they're doing because the students, or the schools that they work with each day are growing, and they're learning, and they're just improving on everything that they're doing at their school.

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John, can I just quickly tell you another story? We often, you know, the gas tank being empty is a metaphor that is used. The other one that's used quite commonly is, you know, on a plane, they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on first.

When, you know, in the case of an, well, whatever, you know, before you put it on your children or the others, interestingly I was wondering, you know, I was using that metaphor and thinking about our school leaders, and I rang a friend of mine who is has been a flight attendant for her whole career, so 40 years.

And I said to her, what happens to the pilot? What goes on in the cockpit? And I said, do they have the same masks as we all have? You know, she said, Oh my God, no, Leanne, of course they don't. Now, I am [00:35:00] not, for anybody listening out there who knows a pilot or is a pilot or whatever, I may not be describing this as a pilot.

completely accurately. But what my friend described to me was this highly sophisticated system for the people in the cockpit that actually was so much better than the little ones that we all get. pop down while we're sitting, you know, in the cabin, because of course they need a better system to look after themselves.

They need a better system. And she said, Leanne, it's not just there for emergencies. It's there all the time. They have different airflow in there. They have a different level of oxygen. They have people machines that monitor all of their You know, whatever, I don't know what it monitors, but I presume they're heartbeat and whatever.

Right, right.

their own oxygen levels, but in an emergency, they get, you sort of, now that, like, when I started thinking about it, I'm sort of glad they do, because they're pretty [00:36:00] flimsy, those little oxygen masks that I've never had to put one on, but they're pretty,

We're going to hope to keep it that way too, right?

But what it made me think was, and I said, what about the rest?

What about the cabin crew? She said, I don't know, we just get the rest as everybody else. Now, that's a really interesting point as well, metaphorically there. But I think the point that I want to make is, the importance, the most important people, You're not going to have somebody fly the plane if you don't have the pilot.

And yes, another thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, we often say the most important people in our schools are our students. Now, I am not going to query that everything we do is for the students. However, I think, I'm wondering, The wondering, so I'm just going to throw it out there. I'm wondering if that is actually true.

I've certainly been in schools where they've been very teacher dominated cultures, [00:37:00] and so everything revolved around the needs of the teacher and the teacher's needs. That's not good either. However, if you don't pay attention, everything in the school It's not always about the kids. It's also got to be about our teachers.

It's also got to be about our ancillary staff. It's also got to be about our leaders. It's also got to be about ourselves as school principals. And it's a balance between all of them. People. are the most important. They're at the centre of everything we do. The outcome is always about what is best for kids, but actually sometimes you've got to say what is good for teachers, what is good for me as a leader, what is good for us as a team, what is good for our community and our parents, what is good for our parish, [00:38:00] our you know, parish priest and how we work in harmonious relationship there.

And if you don't do that, the whole culture gets out of balance.

Yep. Because then you become like a genie of what can I do next for you? Okay. And.

I think, you know, to be honest, I wonder, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a, you know, I read a lot. I've studied a lot. I don't want to live and work in the world of academia, but I have great, obviously, respect for that. What I want to say about that, I have a really strong sense about well being and thinking this statement that every, you know, the students have to be at the centre of everything we do and every decision that we make.

I'm not surprised if that's been what's been our driving force, that we've got problems with the well being of our teachers and our leaders. Because it's like they're the forgotten people and they're so critical and they're so critical [00:39:00] and that we haven't got the balance. So I think, and I go back to our Catholic doctrine actually and our belief of the Trinity, which is all around relations.

It's about relationships. It's, yes, it's about the, there's the individual, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Yes, in a school, we've got the, those groups, those stakeholders. But they don't just exist in isolation. They actually exist in beautiful harmony and in relationship with one another and in communion.

And they're all important. You can't take one away. So I think and then we we as the human beings are invited into that relationship. So as a Catholic school, if we don't put concept of relationship and harmony and communion and invitation and we enact that, and we don't enact that in how we turn up and in the structures and processes, then we're actually not living out that value.

[00:40:00] So,

Well, and you mentioned too about the oxygen mask on the plane, I had heard a few years ago, somebody pointed this out, and I thought this was a really brilliant observation, but they said, number one, you have to put your mask on first so that you can take care of everybody else next to you.

Okay. But number two, if you don't do that, you become an obstruction. for everybody else. Okay, you're now you're in the way. Okay. And so if you're not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody else. And now you're in the way of preventing them from doing what they want to do and the goals that they want to accomplish.

So I can't stress it enough, and let me just say this too, because there may be a leader out there in one of our Catholic schools, whether it's the United States, or Canada, or Australia, or somewhere in the world, who is listening to this, and they think, yes, that's me. Don't be embarrassed. by saying, I gotta, I need help with this.

Okay. Maybe your culture is not what you want it to be at your school. You know, talk to somebody from, and I know in our driven world that we are now [00:41:00] today, it's like, well, I can't ask for help because I don't want to get in trouble, or I don't want to lose my job, or I don't want to, you know, Don't be afraid to ask for help.

There are there. I think that's one thing I've seen from our mastermind groups is when somebody brings a problem up or brings an issue up that they are having, no matter how far out it might seem to them, somebody at the table or somebody on the conference goes, I've had something really similar that happened in my school, and it's just that, oh, relief of hearing to somebody else that gets what I'm saying right now, and tell me what, let me, help me understand how you worked through it, and so, you know, out there, it, like I said whether it's a buddy principal or a, whatever just don't go at it alone.

Don't be afraid to ask for that help.

I could not agree with you more and I think, you know, don't wait, you know, if I go back to my metaphor, don't wait, if the red light's on, you know, when I mean, whatever stop means in that sense for you [00:42:00] and actually talking to somebody else, because let me just tell you, and particularly for any leaders out there who are relatively new in their career, it happens to everybody.

And I've been a principal in four different schools. It happens, so it doesn't mean that the more experienced you are, the less it happens. That's not true. And it doesn't mean that the more skilled you get at recognising your own sign. We all have times. Our, in our leadership journey that, that things don't go well and that impact our wellbeing and or, and we feel like we are going under and I can tell you it hasn't happened to me once it's happened to me.

multiple times. The first time it happened I thought that, you know, that the self doubt, all of the things, more than self doubt, more than self doubt just like, I yeah, like, like almost a [00:43:00] critical time, I'm going to say, a critical time, not a life crisis, but it was certainly, it was one of those times, I think John, I love, you know, When we start to live into, as we continue to grow and live within the capacity of who we were born to be we get to a boundary, you know, and when we get to the boundaries, we tend to feel pretty good about ourselves.

You know, we go, Oh, look, I've got this bit nailed, you know, so as it might be as a principal or as a parent or as whatever, I'm just talking in general about, however, something will then happen in life that will then, you know, make us question where we're at. Now, those are times that, you know, these are times that life as we know it just doesn't seem to make sense anymore.

And that we question ourselves or things seem to fall apart, except that they're the life giving opportunities and times to push beyond that threshold. [00:44:00] So if you're feeling like this, I know it doesn't feel good, I'm going to say. I'm, I know it doesn't feel good, but actually the person who said this, it's one of the, one of the mystics, I'll think of who it was, but she said, you know, in the good times and in the bad times, God's grace is with us in both times and, but also God is at work.

So this is not an accident. This is not happening to you. It's actually happening for you.

100%.

And once you, you push that boundary and that you seek help and that you get different you know, different perspectives or whatever it is that, or time or whatever, you know, wisdom that you need to acquire in that you become a bigger person and we grow beyond that and we continue to grow.

And I think that's What John meant when he said, I have come that you have life and have it to the full. He didn't [00:45:00] say I have come that you have life and have it to the full and that means you've got to be really happy and capable and great all the time. Having it to the full means that as you grow, it hurts.

We get growing pains and those boundaries as a leader they can be really confronting because they can be, I think I'm going to lose my job. I've messed up here. You know, these are the thoughts I've had, you know, I'm just not good at this. Everybody, if you feel that this is where you're called to be, who is anybody to question that?

Who are you to question that in yourself, if that's what God is speaking to you in your heart?

And I think that when you overcome those things with 99%, 99. 999 percent of the time with the help of Christ and with the help of somebody else that is there to guide you through it, whatever that might be for you, maybe it's your pastor, maybe it's a fellow administrator, or maybe it's a superintendent, whatever the case [00:46:00] may be. whatever. But when you are able to power through that, okay and overcome that, it's, it just makes you stronger. And so, don't, yeah don't overlook what that is. And I recognize just because of what, you know, whether it's, like I said, pastor, some people, a spouse. I do recognize sometimes things in school might be confidential and you can't disclose certain elements to a spouse or things like that.

So, you know, so, but there's a lot of people out there that are willing to help, but they don't know they can't help you. So don't be afraid of that

Well, I hope you've enjoyed this interview today with Leanne Nichol. hopefully you've learned something about them to help you as a Catholic school leader.

Check out elementaryadvancement. com for more tips, articles, and tools that you can use as a Catholic school leader, including our keys to a successful Catholic school. Yours free at [00:47:00] elementaryadvancement. com forward slash keys.