Challenging the Status Quo with Tanya Sheckley
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. My name is John Mahalo, your host. I am so glad that you are here today. This podcast is all about connecting Catholic school leaders from around the world. So my hope is that through our conversations today, we can inspire one another and share strategies to strengthen our schools and deepen their Catholic identity.
So whether you're a principal, a teacher, an aspiring administrator, an Advancement Director, Enrollment Director, anybody who is just passionate about Catholic education, it is an absolute honor to have you listening today. In today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome Tanya Sheckley to the podcast.
She is an incredible leader and educator who's breaking down barriers and redefining what's possible in education. We're going to be exploring what it means to challenge the status quo in schools and how innovative leadership can inspire change and growth in our communities. Now, before we get into the interview, I just want to take a moment here, as we do with each episode, to take a Quick pause and say a quick prayer and give thanks for [00:01:00] this day.
So if you would join me in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, thank you for this opportunity to come together today as your children to talk about challenging the status quo in leadership. Please bless my guest today, Tanya Sheckley, in her work, so that together we may give your name honor, praise, and glory.
We pray our work will bring your light, love, and mission to our listeners and to the world. We ask this through your Son, Jesus Christ, Amen. In the name of the Father, and And the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, before we jump into the conversation, I'd like to just give you a couple of reminders, first and foremost, if this is your first time listening to Catholic School Leaders podcast, welcome, hope you enjoyed today's episode.
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Uh, look for me on LinkedIn, John Mahalio, uh, put that down on the show notes as well, or you can connect with us at Elementary Advancement [00:03:00] Solutions. A big thank you to our sponsor today, Elementary Advancement Solutions, you got just for making this podcast possible. If your school is looking for ways to grow your enrollment, please sign up.
Enhance your advancement efforts and truly live out its mission more fully. Visit elementaryadvancement. com for tailored solutions that truly make a difference. So let's get started. I want to welcome Tanya Sheckley to the podcast. I can't wait to dive into this important discussion today about innovation and leadership in our schools.
So Tanya is an edgerpreneur. The founder of the UP Academy and co founder of Project UP. UP Academy is a non traditional elementary school which values respect, innovation, empathy, and strength. Project UP brings fully integrated literacy and project based learning curriculum for K 5 schools, as well as building a community of founders and leaders.
Tanya's vision and mission show that it's possible to celebrate differences, Change what's [00:04:00] broken in the American education system, and that all children can receive a rigorous, well rounded education. She is the author of Rebel Educator, Create Classrooms Where Imagination and Impact Meet, and the host of the Rebel Educator podcast.
She speaks frequently on the future of education and entrepreneurship. She is a rebel educator who works with founders and leaders to launch innovative school models Question the status quo and develop engaging student experiences through inclusion and project based learning.
Tanya, welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. Great to see you again.
Hi, John. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.
Oh, I am as well. And so for those people that are out there that are, let's play it safe. Let's you know, always color by numbers, always making sure that we are just business as usual. And that's the way we've always done it. I'm going to warn you, you [00:05:00] probably are not going to like a lot of our conversation today because our conversation today is really going to be challenging that idea of that's the way we've always done it and challenging the status quo.
And so I know that's something you're really passionate about as a rebel educator. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you kind of take on this mentality of. Challenging the status quo in education.
Yeah, I mean, that's what I was gonna say, like, I, I love a good color by number, don't get me wrong, but the, yeah, the focus here is, you know, my brand is Rebel Educator, the book is Rebel Educator, my podcast is Rebel Educator our new community is Rebel Educator, and we are about challenging the status quo, and it really began for me.
Because I came from education from the outside. My background before opening and founding our school was not in education. And so I really took the standpoint from the student. What is best for the students? How can we look at the research and create an environment and a school and [00:06:00] open up possibilities that are going to support learning and development and community building and empathy and really all of the.
the characteristics of the humans we want to bring into the world to be leaders and develop and coach but also the academics that they need to be successful in the world and in our society. So how do we build those things together? And that's really where we started when we started a school.
And from one hand, like I, I wasn't burdened by the way we've always done it. Cause there was no way I've always done it. uh, And the other hand it's, there's a lot of reasons for. Why things are done the way that they are. And so it's been interesting coming in from the outside and creating something new and different and innovative and how much, you know, the way we've always done it still comes in and seeps in and expectations of parents and expectations of students and expectations of society of what a school should be and should look like.
[00:07:00] It's interesting because I have conversations with parents and we're a very experiential project based environment. You know, our desks are not facing forward. The chairs are not behind the desks. There's not a teacher in the front of the room. It's flexible seating. Kids are often in small groups.
They're often all over the room. Or right now, if you can hear them behind me they're out in the big space and they're working on projects together. And so it doesn't. look like a traditional school when you walk in. And so I often have parents doing a tour who want a project based environment and want their kids to be collaborating and want them to be creative.
But then they ask, you know, where are their names on their desks and how do they know where to sit? And why doesn't it look like school? And I make a little quote marks with my fingers that you can't see because this is a podcast, but.
Yes. But we can see them though. We can hear it through the airways the air quotes go on there.
So yeah, so the idea is, you know how do we create a truly student centered experience that's focused on the best that we can for the development and support [00:08:00] of raising children?
Yeah. And that's what it's all about as a school. And I think that one of the things that a lot of people out there want to make changes. They want to challenge the status quo, but the other mistake I see is that they try to change too much, too quickly, without understanding why they're doing what they're doing, okay?
So, you know, as somebody who you know, has, is in education you have started your school from the ground level. You know, how do you identify areas where maybe within a school culture that needs some reevaluation and those areas that maybe, hey, this is, yeah, this is the way we've always done it and there's a reason for that and it works.
I guess the way I would say it is better to know why you built the fence before you take the fence down. I think that was Mark Twain that said that, but you better know why the fence was built before you tear it down because otherwise you're going to really regret that. So. How do you kind of determine those areas that are best to look at or maybe ways the process as you go about identifying things?
Yeah, well, sometimes when you tear down the [00:09:00] fence, there's a tiger on the other side, and that's why the fence was there, right, and you don't want to be eaten by the tiger. Sometimes when you tear down the fence, you know, the nasty neighbors have moved, and there's nothing scary on the other side, and that fence really doesn't need to be there, and you find something really pleasant, and a new friendship, and a new way of being and living.
And, yeah, it's challenging to know what those things are, but it goes back to your own community and your own mission and values for the community. for the school or for your organization. And that's the thing where we, you know, that's where we started when we launched a school, but also it's the thing when I work with schools where we really start is, what is your profile of a graduate?
What skills, competencies, experiences, knowledge do you want students to have when they leave? How do we get from A to B, right, from where we are now to where we want them to be and stay true to our mission and our vision and values? And the things that were built [00:10:00] to defend other things, right? Other than those things or the things that were built in service of a past way of thinking or an earlier mindset are those fences that don't need to be there.
And so how do you shift that thinking and how do you shift that mindset? And that's what so much of it is that The way that we develop teachers, the way that we train, you know, generally in college and coming out of school is for a system, the way that we've always had it. And so when we're starting to think about shifting culture, starting to think about innovation or changing our curriculum or changing the way we teach, or even changing the way the tables and chairs are laid out in our classroom, it takes a shift of mindset from how do I go from being the all knowledgeable teacher who's imparting information and I have this curriculum and they need to learn this content to how can I really facilitate learning within this classroom and support students to [00:11:00] ask questions and be curious and come about the same curriculum.
It can be the same content, but how do we go about it in a different way to build the skills that they really need to be successful in the world.
And I remember in doing a podcast with with a couple of our friends down in Australia Allison and Michael and one of the things that they pointed out was is that they noticed all their teachers would leave the building really tired and the kids would leave full of energy. And then we said, wait a minute, that's probably the wrong way that this should look at the end of the day.
The kids should be the ones really leading the learning, and the teachers should be there to facilitate and to help and to teach and to But if the teachers are the only ones leaving tired and the kids have been sitting there all day that's kind of a backwards approach to things. And so what it sounds like to me is And I love this.
You are starting with the end in mind of where you want this to go and then working backwards as to what it needs to look like in order to get there. So it's intentional in what you're [00:12:00] doing.
Well, if you don't know where you're going, you're not going to know how, if you got there.
Correct. if you aim enough and you'll hit it every
Star approach, right? It's, It's the North Star approach. Where are we going? What is that North Star? And there are many paths to get there. There are many different ways. But as long as we're heading, you know, in that north, facing that compass, going in that direction, we're going to get towards where we want to be.
And that doesn't mean, you know, you mentioned, you know, schools wanting to make huge shifts right away. Like it doesn't mean that's going to happen tomorrow or this year or in the next even three to five years, but as long as we're moving in that direction and heading towards that North Star, we're getting to where we want to go.
But if you don't define that, you don't have that vision and values, you don't have that understanding of what that looks like when you get there. Then you're just kind of treading water and it's swimming aimlessly in any direction, and maybe you'll hit land.[00:13:00]
Yeah. You're having a good time on the way there, but you're not really sure where you're going to end up at. And that's definitely not the best way to go on a vacation. But anyway. I think the one thing I hear a lot is when people want to define or kind of say, Hey this is in my mind of what it is.
I think one of the biggest mistakes they make is they don't put it out there to have that shared vision. They know where they want to go, but they don't do a sufficient enough job of communicating that out so that all the stakeholders in your community. Understand that and have a common goal of what they're going for.
So I think that's so important. How have you just, how have you done that in the school? To just define that clear goals and say, Hey, this is where we're heading. This is where our true north is. And this is where we're all heading in that same direction.
Yeah, I think it's two pieces. So one is definitely that clear communication of here is our profile of a graduate. Here's where we're going. This is what the strategy looks like. You know, are these things on the website? Have they [00:14:00] been communicated clearly? Have there been meetings and events? Does everybody know that this is who we are?
This is what we stand for. And this is. the outcomes that we're seeking and making sure that communication is clear, it's consistent, it's relevant. Everybody coming into the school, in the school, and exiting the school as alumni all are aligned and aware of what we're trying to do. But the other half of that is Getting to that point of what you're communicating should be a community experience, right?
Like, me as a leader, I'm not saying this is who we are as a school and here's the communication and putting a stamp on it and saying this is the way it's going to be, you know, as we looked at, growth, and we looked at bringing on a middle school, and we looked at who we wanted to be. You know, we're in year seven right now, so coming out of year five, like, who do we want to be going forward?
Is this still serving us? It was a full community effort. We invited the entire community come to meetings. We did full design [00:15:00] sprints where we do 90 minute calls of What are we noticing that's happening in our school? What do we want to be? What should we start doing? What's happening really well that we need to keep doing?
And if we want to keep doing these things and start doing some new things, What is it that we're noticing that's happening that we have to stop because we can't keep piling on new initiatives and new things and adding different things without stopping and getting rid of the things that aren't working or that don't serve us or that aren't moving us in the direction we want to go.
So for everything we bring in, we've got to dump something. And
a capacity. Everybody has a capacity in which they can all and, and, And I guess too is once you accomplish something, Okay, we thought this was going to take us three years and we did it in a year and a half. We can check that and move to the next thing. Uh, It's not like we're going to stay stagnant for the next year and a half and go, well, we already did that, so we're good to go, and we'll wait a year and a half to start something new, but we [00:16:00] already accomplished this.
I think one of the great things to hear from you with that is, you engaged your parents. in that process. You engage your whole community in that process. And I know that's a piece that a lot of schools with working parents and we got after school events and we've got people every which way going every which direction.
And there's a big struggle to engage their community right now or to get parents to be involved with things of this nature. What are some strategies that maybe you use to just stress that importance? Because there are leaders out there listening to this going, Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do too, but I can't get anybody to respond to things.
Or, hey, we put a survey out and I get maybe 20 percent respondents on those kind of things. What are some strategies that maybe you use to foster that sort of engagement from your parents?
Yeah. Well, I mean, first we're a small community, so it's a little bit easier because we are a tiny. But the community engagement is so important. You know, it moves my role from communicating things as a leader that's coming from the [00:17:00] leader to you, the community, into now I'm just facilitating what the community wants.
They're already on board. They know the mission. They created it. And now it's our job as school leadership to just facilitate that and make it happen and make sure that we're moving in the direction that the community wants this to move. From a, you know, how do we get them to participate? We did lots of different formats.
We found that the later evening Zoom calls are when our parents are available and when they can be engaged. It's after the after school, it's after dinner. A lot of times it's after bedtime for the littles. So that then the parents are free for an hour or two hours to be able to join. Of course, that's a tough time of night too.
Everybody's tired, we want to go to bed, read our book. But that's a time that we've found has worked for us. And then just ongoing community engagement. You know, how do you engage them regularly? What social [00:18:00] events are happening? What coffee hours? What dinners, what fundraisers, what community events.
You know, we have a big movie night coming up next week that our community comes out to. And I think the more a community feels a part of the community, the more they're willing to participate in helping to make decisions and steer the community. it's ongoing work, definitely. But it, it can be done.
And kind of going back to the mindset of. If you're looking to shift the culture of a school, it doesn't happen overnight. You're finding those few ambassadors, right, that are engaged and involved and trying new things in their classroom and then other people come in and go, Oh, that was really cool.
How did you do that? How did that work? And that mindset and that shift then starts to spread and it takes time. And so if we're getting 20 percent engagement in our community. Well, getting that 20 percent to share what's happening and to talk to other parents and to invite them to things, right? That's, that starts to [00:19:00] spread and people say, Oh, well, yeah, that, that is cool.
That is interesting. I wish I would have been there. How can I get involved with that? And there's always going to be some people that are like, Nope, this is my school. I send my kids. You do whatever you need to do. I'm happy just sending my kids and that's okay too. Like you need those parents too.
Yeah and I think too that the, don't underestimate the word of mouth because like you said, if you have 20 percent and that 20 percent can each engage one person on, hey this is what happened or this is what we did and boom, you double that over the next year. That's huge right there.
So don't ever underestimate that word of mouth power. But I think the other thing, too, is that consistency. To me, one of the things I always say about a successful school, it has great consistency in policies and communication and whatever. There's a consistent messaging going on. There's great communication and there's great curb appeal.
If you have those three things, Probably 90 percent of your issues that you have at a school are going to get knocked out because those things exist at the school. [00:20:00] And so it's not just a situation where you communicate something one time in a newsletter or in an email or something like that and go, Well, we put that out, so this should engage about 100 percent of our people.
Tomorrow, they'll respond to this survey. It's just not a realistic situation. Expectation these days, I think.
No. And like, I'm in the heart of Silicon Valley. Everybody's inundated with all the new things all the time. And, you know, we're always signing up for the newsletter or learning about the beta that's coming out or whatever. It's like, I have a separate email personally that I use for all of those things.
things, because I'm going to get all of those emails, right? And your parents might be sending your newsletter to that email.
thing, yep exactly,
But
So don't take it personally when they do, but it's just, it's the nature of the beast.
but we're so inundated. And so from a marketing perspective, yeah if you want parents to respond to something, you have to send it a minimum of three times. Like it goes out in the newsletter, it goes out as a separate email, and it goes out as [00:21:00] a final reminder. And if you really want them to participate, that's a 5 7 email string that it's in and connected to.
But, yeah, there's no one and done with communication. It's all ongoing to your point. It's all consistent and it has to be done continuously or people just don't notice like there's just so much noise and it's not that they don't want to know about your survey and it's not that they don't want to participate.
They just miss emails. Yeah,
that seventh email over and over and over again, somebody will say, I never saw that. When did that go out? And you're going, really? So I think that's the other piece too is that don't just assume that everybody does the same thing and putting it out over different methods of communication, whether it be social media or phone or, you know, open houses, I don't know, whatever the case might be, but giving people the opportunity to engage in those things through multiple venues and multiple avenues is so important these days.
Year, like my, my daughter's school reached out and they're like, Hey, are you going to respond [00:22:00] to this? We need to, you know, if you're going to take part in this next year, like you have in the past years, we Tomorrow's the deadline. I was like, what? Tomorrow's the deadline? I didn't know this.
Why didn't you communicate this? She's like, it's been in the newsletters for the last four months. I was like, yeah, I
that's always a good feeling, isn't it? You're like, yeah, I'm that guy right now, you know,
I uh,
so if people want to foster a culture and they, there may be hesitant to do this there, there are schools out there that are 100 years old, there are schools out there that are five years old. There's traditions that are out there, long standing histories, long standing traditions, long standing practices at their schools.
And then there's those changes that need to happen. What do you say, or what advice do you have for a leader out there who might be hesitant to challenge those long standing practices?
I think there's two parts to that. First is tradition and longstanding practice. And the second is fear. And so much of When we want to [00:23:00] change or when we see a better way is overcoming that fear of change. Like, as humans, we're afraid to change. We kind of like the status quo. We like consistency. It makes us comfortable.
We understand the expectations. And when we shift that, when we change things, when there's a new expectation, when we're doing something differently, when change happens, people get afraid and they're not sure how it's what's going to work, what's going to happen, how the community is going to handle it, if people are going to be upset, if they're going to have to deal with backlash, if people are going to be excited, right?
And as a leader, I mean, any change that you make or decision that you make, half the people are excited and half the people are upset. And there's like, there's no way to make everybody happy. So it partially goes back to that North Star. Where are you going? How are you best going to get there? Does this change?
Is this change warranted and is it going to get there and can you have that consistent communication so people understand why you're doing what you're doing and where you're going. But also, you know [00:24:00] that there's a saying something about everything we've ever wanted is on the other side of fear, and just taking a moment taking a deep breath and visualizing like okay what happens if we keep doing it the way we're doing.
and play that out, you know, but we keep getting what we're getting, right? Things don't change if we keep doing what we're doing. And then thinking for a moment and visualizing, okay, what happens if we make a change? What happens if we push through that fear? What happens if we deal with the backlash and the naysayers and the people?
Because anything worth doing has a lot of people saying it's not going to work. Right, anytime there's a change, lots of people tell you, it's never going to work, you can't do it, it's not going to happen, X, Y, and Z is going to happen, that's going to be catastrophic. And usually those things don't happen.
These are the people who are playing devil's advocate and who are trying to protect themselves because the brain wants to fight or flight whenever there's a change, and that comes [00:25:00] across in a lot of different ways. Thanks. And some people, you know, lash out and they want to fight about it, and some people want to run away and put their head in the sand.
And some people will tell you all of the reasons why it doesn't work, but working through, like, when we opened the school, we worked through a process that we just called, you know, like, it was a worst case scenario, but a what if. Like, okay, we've rented this building, what if nobody comes? Well, we have a five year lease and we're on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Okay, so we've got to buy that out. Then what happens? Well, we have to, you know, we lose our house, we have to sell our cars, it takes all of our assets to make this up because it failed. Okay, well then what? Well, then we live in an RV down by the river, which honestly being an outdoors person is kind of my plan B anyway, like I'd be super excited about
you're in on
country in an RV. So like, as we look at taking the risk and moving past that fear and walking through a what if and giving that worst case scenario for everything for [00:26:00] us it's what if we build it and nobody comes. Right? Like, then what happens? Like, we've built all of this, we've taken on all this risk, we've taken on all this potential, and nothing happens.
Well, what's the worst thing that comes from that? And the worst thing usually isn't that bad, right? And then you look at,
it is what if we do this and everybody comes, okay?
exactly, right? Then it's the
of that.
of, yeah, it's that visualization of, so we did this, we moved past the fear, we're doing this for that. That golden star, that golden egg to get to where we want to go, like, what does that look like? And understanding that, that joy of where we want to be in solving those problems way overcomes whatever the worst case scenario is.
Yeah, absolutely. And I remember I heard a couple of years ago, I listened to I think it was by Stephen Covey, and I'll apologize if I'm misquoting it, but the person was talking about change and giving people the tools that they needed for that change. [00:27:00] And the argument was, well, what if we give them all these tools and they leave?
And Cubby's response was, well, what if we don't and they stay? Okay. And so when you talk about the worst case scenario, it's like, well, to me, staying stagnant and just staying business as usual is probably the worst thing that could, because everything's evolving, everything is moving. Everything is moving forward.
Even the technology that we use. You're out in Silicon Valley, you know, the iPhone, as we're recording this, is all the new rage. In 20 years, people might look back at the iPhone and go, I can't believe you guys used those things. I can't believe you walked around with those little boxes in your hand and did those things.
Look back at the technology we had 20 years ago. Everything is constantly changing, constantly evolving. But in education, we always seem to stay, let's just stay in our comfort zone. Let's not challenge anything. Let's not get outside of our box. It's comfortable here kind of thing. And so I think the more we can do that, but I also think that you touched on something right there of why, you know, if everybody knows this is a great thing to do, you know, why doesn't it happen?
[00:28:00] And you mentioned a word there, fear. So what's that leader that's out there that's listening to this? Yeah, I know I've got to do this. I know I've got to. I know I've got to make this change. I know I've got to take, tackle this issue that's happening in my school. I know I need to make this particular area better.
We're struggling in there. But boy, saying it is just creating a lot of fear in their mind and fear in their brains and looking at that worst case scenario and things like that. What do you say to that person? Give them that pep talk of, Hey, come on, you've got this. You can get beyond this. And just to overcome that fear, because I think that's something that really holds a lot of leaders back is fear.
And it's preventing them from being the best version of themselves.
I find that just saying things out loud, of course, doesn't make it true, but starts to solidify the thoughts, like in my own mind, and then the thoughts of the way things can shift. So that's an easy way to start, even if there's no [00:29:00] one around. You know, saying it to a mirror, saying it to yourself, saying it in your office with the door closed so nobody can hear you and you don't have to commit to anything, but once you say it, it's out in the world.
And there's a, an energy that comes from putting things out into the world. And once you say it and you have it out there, then you can say it to somebody else. And, you know, finding those safe people to bounce ideas off of in the beginning to just start to get the ideas flowing and even to get your own thoughts around it flowing and organized can be really helpful.
But, you know, starting to make a big change like we talked about in the beginning, big change is hard. Right. And you've got a, you know, a problem to solve or a thing coming up that you know that you need to tackle. We start with what is that one thing? What is one small step you can do to move you in that direction?
You don't have to do [00:30:00] the whole thing now. But what is the smallest action that you can take that's going to support that goal? And how can you do that now? And doing that every day, like what is that next small thing? What is that next small thing? It's one of the things I tell micro school founders as they're starting their schools, like you don't have to start your school in a day.
It doesn't need to be built in a week, but what one thing can you do every day to move your vision forward? Uh, and so it's,
does success look like? Right? What does success look like? How are you going to define it? Because usually, if you don't have your North Star, how do you know you got there? You know what I mean? How do you know what that looks like? So,
you know, breaking it down, having smaller steps, creating milestones, finding those champions that are going to support you putting it out into the world, creating the energy around you that this is a thing that even just that you want, even if you don't have [00:31:00] a goal or don't know how to make it happen or don't have the community support and haven't started those things, but just getting it out.
Like we need to move in this direction, or I'd like to see this happen, or this is the thing that I want. For my school, for my community, for myself, for my family has a lot of power.
it really does. And I think, when you mentioned before about the communication aspect, you know, to me, getting that consistent communication, That not only happens before, and not only happens after, but happens during, so that people know that, listen, this wasn't just one email that we put out and said, hey, we're going to do this, but it's ongoing, and they can see those results, and I think that's something in the book, Atomic Habits, where he talks about just grow 1 percent each day.
If you get 1 percent better each day, Boy, what will it look like in a year? And so don't overlook the value of communicating what's happening. Not only the before of, Hey, this is what we're going to do. And the after, Hey, we got there, but what does it look like during, to [00:32:00] help people really see that vision coming to life?
Yeah. And not only like I'll reiterate, but not only to your community and to those around you and to those that you're leading, but also to yourself. Like, there's the things that we say out loud become our thoughts, and our thoughts are, you know, really important, the things that we put into our head and the things that we believe.
And so if we can, you know, verbalize that and manifest that around us within ourselves, and, you know, believe it ourselves that yes, we can get there. Yes, this can happen. Yes, we're going to make this change and have that internal confidence and optimism that has a lot of power with those around us and those that we're supporting and those that we want to get on board and those that we're facilitating to create the type of culture, the type of change, the type of direction that we want, you know, the school or the organization or our team or our students to take.
And I think having. [00:33:00] A group that you can bounce things off of, you know, for us, a leadership team or a, you know, group, whatever the case might be, but just something that you can kind of, because I think sometimes if it's the first time you're hearing it out loud is when you're actually presenting it to the group.
That's scary. But when you've, you know, spent some time with your leadership group or, you know, whatever the case might be, and you have the chance to put it out there to, I hate to use it as practice but you're, you're getting their feedback on it, you're getting some practice explaining this idea, you're fine tuning a little bit and then when you aren't at that point where you've got to present it to the larger community, It's not as scary because you've, I hate to use the word, practiced, but you've said it out loud a number of times to a number of people, and you've refined that message, and you've maybe kind of crafted it so that it is easily understandable.
And don't underestimate the value of that. I think that's one of the things that, I tell leaders all the time is don't go at this alone because there's a whole community that's out there that wants you to be successful. People on [00:34:00] your own team want you to be successful, so don't feel like you have to go at this alone.
Yeah, it's a really good point. And it's a good point for leaders to remember to find those people, right? Because it's leadership is hard and leadership is lonely, and you can't, Bounce ideas off of your team and your employees all the time because that makes them nervous because you're talking about change and they don't want that uncertainty and you don't want to, like, that's not the culture you want to breed.
But it's also challenging to, you know, to talk to your board or your advisory board because there's also ideas that you have that until they get to a point where you're really ready to share and talk about like, Hey, this is something I'd really like to bring into the school. What do you think? Those aren't the places for those either.
So finding a mentorship group, finding a leadership group, finding a coaching group, finding a good coach, finding someone that can support ideas, brainstorm, bounce ideas off of, you know that's part of what we're doing over in the rebel educator school group. That's part of why I created that.
It's all for [00:35:00] leaders to. Throw out those crazy wacky ideas that you want to see if anybody else has tried or would this work or what do you think you know, that's having a group of people, you know, I've definitely found throughout my time as a leader has been invaluable. And as someone who is a, An only child, a strong independent woman, a person who finds it hard to ask for help, which I think is true of a lot of leaders, right?
We like to do things and it's hard to ask for help. I never would have sought out a coach, but I kind of, backwards, accidentally fell into this women's mastermind coaching business group several years ago. And it was the best thing. And since having that, like, I would never be without an outside coaching or accountability, you know, brainstorming group of some sort that is made up of other leaders who may or may not be school leaders.
They could be in other [00:36:00] industries. And that can be super helpful and useful too, to hear What people are doing in tech or in manufacturing or in consumer goods or in other industries and how they're solving problems in their businesses because that can be super relevant to how we solve problems in schools as well.
And I think especially when we're talking about schools, oftentimes we are competing for lack of a better word, with through our recruitment efforts, through maybe our fundraising dollars, through whatever the case might be, with other schools in our area. So it's very difficult to pick somebody else's brain that's in the same position as you.
So I agree with you completely that getting that perspective, maybe from people that aren't even in the same community as you, maybe in different states, different countries, all over the world. I know that's something we appreciate with the Mastermind Groups I do, is it gives perspective from all over the world on issues that you're dealing with, but it's a great way to bounce an idea off of somebody and [00:37:00] let it hit air.
And what's always amazing to me with those kind of things is that you think you're the only one that's ever dealt with something and somebody else in the group is like, yep, I've been there before. And let me tell you what, and it's just great perspective. I agree with you fully on that one. If you can get connected to some sort of leadership group, like I said, and that's not a plug for mine, yours, anything, you got to find what works for you.
But if you're out there, don't let it alone. And I would say too, one of the things you hear all the time is, Oh, I don't know if I can afford those kinds of things. There's cost and there's value. And don't be afraid to seek those things out because if the cost to you. is either negative or positive it's going to benefit you.
Okay. In terms of, if you don't do it, it's going to negatively impact you. If you do it and there's an investment, but it's going to make you a stronger leader. And so don't ever be afraid to go out and ask for help and get others opinions. I think it's such a powerful thing and something I know that I didn't always do a hundred percent as a principal, but boy, I wish I would've.
Yeah, it's [00:38:00] so important and it, it's it's so important. It reminds me of kind of what you were just talking about, you know, what if we give them all the tools and they leave? Well, what if we don't give them tools and they stay? And you're, if you're in that role and you're not giving yourself tools, like you're doing yourself and your school and your community a disservice by not growing and learning in the ways that you could.
Not only for personal development, but also for the sake of modeling. If you want to create a school environment where your teachers are lifelong learners and your students are lifelong learners, like The students won't find that joy in that love of learning unless your educator staff is also finding that joy in that love of learning, which is so much easier when they're also watching you finding that joy in that love of learning.
There's one other story that I have about that as you were talking there was a person who was in one of my business coaching accountability groups that I was a part of, and he talked about his business, and it was that sort of thing. They were training and developing these incredible [00:39:00] employees, and they kept losing them because the companies that they were consulting with and working with kept stealing their employees.
And so instead of Being really upset about that and continuing the first few times they're like, Oh, we put all this effort and this work and this time and this energy and this money into training this person. And then they went and took this other job. They really started to see that as kind of the core function of their businesses.
How can we train and develop these people and become known for having the absolute best team. So that companies do want to steal them and take them. And how does this actually become a pathway for employees to do that? How do we develop them so that these companies do want them and so that they can go into bigger and different and better positions in the companies that we work with?
And they actually like built it into contracts so that then they got paid a fee if a company quote unquote stole their employee but really became known [00:40:00] for the caliber of their employees, the quality of their service, and the training and development that they provided. So everybody wanted to work there.
Like they, they never had issues with recruiting and they developed such an incredible program that Outside companies wanted to work with them because they knew their team was amazing. People wanted to come work for them because they knew their training program was amazing. So like, instead of this being a, should, you know, a scarcity feeling of, should we really do this and develop people?
Cause what might happen and where might they go? You know, how can you look at that from a different way and really develop that as a positive into, we're creating this incredible team and it's awesome and amazing while they're here. But also Like, we want them to develop and grow just like we want our students to develop and grow.
And how do we foster that culture school wide, not just for a student body.
Yeah, he's truly turning lemons into lemonade on that one right there, because you, because if you, because if not, then you're going to, you're going to [00:41:00] get down. Why is everybody leaving? But you're truly taking something that's not going so well and turning into a positive. And when you can start doing that's contagious right there within your culture and within your community.
I think much the same way we were talking about the professional development aspect, you know, as well as I do, that when you go to a conference, you go to an event, you go to a mastermind group, whatever the case might be. Yeah. When you do something that's going to help you grow professionally, you come back re energized.
I mean, that's just, that's just gonna happen. Okay? And so if you as the leader are coming back re energized, that's going to rub off onto the folks that are working at your school. Wow, this really gets some pep into stuff today. What did you do? I went to this conference today. Now you're fostering that culture of I want you to get better.
I want you to learn. I want you to grow in your craft. And that just really puts your school in a great place, not only today, but for years to come. If you can create that culture of lifelong learners. Absolutely on that one.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the drawback that I hear, and as you're talking like my [00:42:00] devil's advocate brain is
Go with it. Go
as you're talking, and there's, You know, and then leaders come back and they're energized and they're excited and they've got all these new ideas and new initiatives. And sometimes what happens then as a staff is like, oh man, they're going to pile on more stuff and more initiatives and we got to learn things and which kind of goes back to that.
Okay, if you're going to do that, number one, do that carefully. Is it going towards your vision and your goal? Is it really like, are you excited about it in this moment? And is it really where this school is going in this moment? And if it is. What are you taking off the plate?
Yes. Hunter. And I think that's the big thing right there. is we have to realize there's a capacity. Everybody's got their capacity of what they can hold. Okay. And so every time you go to a meeting, you come back with a new idea. It's almost like, I almost feel like you got to say, okay, put it in the parking lot for the next 30 or 60 days and see if you're still as excited about it in 30 days as you are today.
Okay. And, And, you know, and there's certain things that, you know, you go to [00:43:00] and it's an initiative or it's a whatever. And he's like, okay, we have to do this because it's coming down. Okay. But there's other things as well. This is a great idea. This would be great for a year from now, and let's start having that conversation today to introduce this a year from now.
And there's other things we hear that we go, well, I'd love to be doing this in three years. What do we need to do to get there in three years? How do we work backwards so that we can have those conversations? But I think I agree with you completely that, If you just come in and throw on more and more logs in the fire, If you just come in and throw on more and more logs in the fire, the fire is going to get too big and then it becomes overwhelming.
So, I think that's where it comes, just what are your core values, and as you said, what's that North Star, and where are those aligning so that we know where we're heading and the direction that we're taking for sure.
Yeah, I also love the ideas of empowering the staff and those around us and our teachers and our educators. You know, when you've got that great idea and you're excited about it, maybe there's somebody else that can run with it for a little bit and do some research and see what it would take to implement or what the time [00:44:00] commitment really is, or if somebody else is excited about it.
Right. Like I had a meeting yesterday with a woman who has this, a whole brain mapping business. And I have someone on my team who has a background in neuroscience. And I was like, Oh, you guys are going to be instant besties. Like you are going to love geeking out on this together. And then maybe figuring out how it fits in the school, or maybe not, maybe it's just a cool connection in somewhere that we make referrals in the future or a knowledge that we have in our pocket to share.
Yeah. at a later date, but also like how, how can you make those connections in your team and in your staff and empower them and give them, you know, some power over the direction and the initiatives that are coming in and bring them into that process. Cause also as leaders, we don't need to do all the things.
Now, and I think some of your best ideas can come from your faculty if you give them the opportunity to bring them to you. Okay, one of the things I used to do every year was I would say, listen, I'm going to set aside two weeks and, you know, [00:45:00] create a schedule and you can sign up for a time spot to come talk with me about anything you want to talk about, ideas that you may have, or things you think we can be doing better, or things you think we can improve upon, or things you think we're doing really great about, or just ideas that you have, because then when somebody brings an idea to you, and some of the best ideas that we had as a school came from those meetings, Because people were given the opportunity to just talk about things that they were seeing.
But then as a leader, you're also able to say, Tanya, I think it's a great idea. How are we going to do this together? Okay? And when now you're engaging and empowering that person to say, Listen, you have this idea. I love it. How can I help you do this? And every once in a while you'd have somebody go, Well, I don't want to do it.
I just wanted to tell you so that you could do it. And you'd say, Wait a minute here now. Hold on a second. Because then it's them throwing a log on your fire, okay? But how can you empower and then you know who you've got to lead that group or that committee or whatever the case Because the person has already brought the idea.
They're already engaged. They're already excited about it And sometimes it's something that you're already [00:46:00] thinking about and now this person's brought it to you. So wow now i've got an ally on this And we can speed that process up for getting that into our school. And
that's, I mean, we're a small community, but I do those meetings monthly with all of my staff, and we sit down and have one to ones and talk about their professional goals, their personal goals, their ideas they have, the struggles they have, like all of the professional development that we bring in for teacher training and development times, anything that is school sponsored that we bring in is all led by Our team, what are you struggling with?
What is happening this year? What do we need more support or knowledge or development in? Let's find those people and bring them in to support you. Like, very little is led from me as the leader. It's really coming from them. And again, similar to the community idea, right? The community puts together our community.
Our vision and our strategy and I'm facilitating it. Our team comes to me with what they want to learn and what they're struggling with and I'm facilitating that. It's, I really see my goal as a leader is to make as few decisions as [00:47:00] I possibly can. And really just facilitate the things and the needs and the desires and the direction and the strategy of.
of our board and of our community and our parents and of our team and our educators.
when we are able to do that as leaders of a school, our community is going to be thriving. And so I think what I'm hearing today is don't be afraid to challenge the status quo, but also know why you're challenging the status quo and having that plan and getting everybody on board with it is such a critical step to it.
So Tanya, I can't thank you enough for your time today. I know you're going to go out and check and see what that project's going on behind you and, and, and seeing what these kids have created today, which I'm sure is going to be amazing but I can't thank you enough. I want to give you a chance to plug your what your school is and what you're doing and, and anything in your book as well, because I know that's something that you're going to want to, people are going to want to check that out for sure.
So I was going to say, I was going to give you a shameless plug on what the kids are working on behind me. It's actually a part of their uh, their change makers unit. So we do [00:48:00] trimester long project based units based on a concept and their concept this term is change makers. So they're, they're learning about the election and what's happening in our country as a piece of that.
But also, So about changemakers of the past and how they can be changemakers in their world. And they're actually writing their own podcast. So once we get off here, I have to give my podcasting equipment to them. Cause they're going to go record their podcast, which will be released on the rebel educator podcast in the coming months.
So that'll be a student led student run student written student directed podcast episode. So check out the rebel educator podcast. My book is rebel educator, create classrooms of imagination and impact. You can find me on LinkedIn is where I'm most active. But we also, as I mentioned, recently launched a rebel educator community in school, come join us over there.
We talk about founding and leading your own school communities. So whether you are a current leader, looking to be a leader, looking to create a school, leading a school or involved in the [00:49:00] education realm, come join us over there, we have guest speakers and events happening all the time. And our school is called UP Academy.
We're in the San Francisco Bay Area. We have a project based non traditional K 5 elementary school based here in San Mateo.
And so I want to just point that out to everybody that your school, the podcast that's going to be recorded on the same equipment that you're using today is not being done by seniors in high school. So
this is our,
on those kids. Okay? Don't think that these kids can't do these things. Give them the opportunity to spread their wings and watch the amazing things they're going to do for sure.
Yeah, we uh, this this is, we do mixed age classes, and this is our, this year's upper level class, which is second, third, fourth, and fifth graders that are putting together the podcast.
Well, I can't wait to listen to the episode, so make sure that you share it with me, and I'll be watching for it as well, and I can't wait to hear it, so thank you so much for your time, Tonya, I really [00:50:00] appreciate it, wish you nothing but the best, and seeing the great things that you're doing out there in the San Francisco area.
Yeah, thanks so much, John.
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