The Catholic School Leaders Podcast

Dana Coyle
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders podcast, where we discuss topics important to you as a Catholic school leader each week. I'm your host, John Mahalio, President and Founder of Elementary Advancement Solutions, where our mission is to work with and connect Catholic school leaders to help them improve their schools.

One of the things I firmly believe is that as Catholic schools, we need to be Catholic schools, not private schools.

And that means being accessible to children who may present learning differences. My guests this week, Dr. Dana Coyle and I, are both very, very passionate about today's podcast topic. Now, for many school leaders, this presents questions about how to allocate resources, building space, time. But as you're going to hear from our guest, a 13 year Catholic school principal and a nationally recognized leader for her work with students with learning differences, it's not only possible, but beneficial to all schools to make this a reality.

I think you're really going to enjoy today's podcast. Dr. Coyle's passion is contagious, [00:01:00] and I want to thank her for her time on the podcast. If you find this and our other podcasts helpful, remember to like and subscribe so that you'll find out the minute future podcasts drop about topics directly on the minds of Catholic school leaders.

Enjoy today's podcast. Welcome to the Catholic School Leaders Podcast. Today it is my honor to have as my guest Dr. Dana Coyle. Dana has 13 years of experience in Catholic school administration as a Catholic school principal. She holds a Doctor of Education in Organizational Leadership, grades K through 12. well as a Master of Arts in Educational Leadership and a Master of Science in Special Education. Dana has been an advocate for students with learning differences throughout her years in education and brought programs and practices to all of her schools to best serve all of her students. She's been recognized as a National Award recipient for her work in special education, so it's a pleasure to have Dana with us today.

How you doing today, Dana?

Hey John, how's it going? It's nice being here. You made me sound wonderfully, , well [00:02:00] educated and very Not exciting.

No, not hard to do. And I know you and I have worked together in the past and always looked up to the work you've done. And so tell us, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, something we may not know about you and your background a little bit.

Sure. So let's see. I've been

in the field of education for almost 30 years. I can't even believe that I'm saying that myself. I have taught elementary education, middle

school. been an assistant principal, a curriculum development person. I've helped open a school. School in New Jersey for Children on the Spectrum. So I've been all across the board in any area of education

through my career and I absolutely love it.

I have two children myself. My oldest spent some time in the army, in the military, and now out and I have my youngest daughter graduating from Campbell University. So we have a busy household and I enjoy being at the beach and hanging out with friends.

[00:03:00] Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well, and in our topic of conversation, we really want to focus on today's is really talking about, Catholic schools and, and, students with, learning differences. And so tell us a little bit about your, your background and kind of how that, this passion for yours. I know this is something you're very passionate about.

Tell us a little bit about, how that came to be.

sure. Well, you know, I think it started really early on. You know, my oldest, my son, was starting kindergarten and we really wanted to, have a Catholic education for our children and have them be in a faith filled environment, and as practicing Catholics, we, we just figured that was what we were going to do.

And when he started kindergarten, we took him for the readiness test at a Catholic school near us. And right away, they had said to us, Oh, looks, it looks like he has an ADHD diagnosis and some, , specific learning disabilities in reading and writing. And, I don't think that we can accept him.

We don't serve students like [00:04:00] your son. We wouldn't know what to do with him. And, that was really heartbreaking and hard, you know. It was at that point that we were kind of concerned about Catholic education and whether our son would even achieve there because they said their program was very rigorous and for high achievers.

And even though my son had learning differences early on, we knew about, we knew that he was going to be bright and an achiever. And if he could just access the material in a different way, he'd be great. So at that point. I said, ah, I am an administrator already in a Catholic school and this is what I'm going to do.

This is what God wants me to do and lead me to helping students access a Catholic education, even if they had a learning difference and, wanted a faith filled education because, all children are made. In the likeness of God, so we should be doing everything we can to educate them and have them be a [00:05:00] part of that community.

So that's when I started developing that program.

And you did such an amazing job at that. I know I got to see your work firsthand as a working as a principal with you. And I guess as a school leader, walk me through how that started in the school that you were, you were leading. Did you start that from the ground level?

Did you enhance a program that was already there or kind of how did you go about that?

Well, I do think, , the very first thing you have to do is share your vision and make sure that everybody understands what your vision is. And there are a lot of misconceptions about expanding a Catholic or faith. based school to serve children with learning So, you know, you kind of have to work through what those misconceptions are with parents and teachers.

And some of them are, you know, inclusion is not aligned with religious values, which is just ridiculous. because inclusion, inclusion aligns with principles of compassion and empathy and acceptance founded in many faiths, not just Catholicism. [00:06:00] And it reflects the belief that is inherent of dignity of all individuals, regardless of their differences.

So, that is a misconception and that faith based schools are not equipped to handle diverse learning needs. And with the appropriate resources and training, faith based schools can create. inclusive environments and many have successfully integrated support services, specialized teaching methods and partnerships with experts.

And another misconception to squash is, inclusive education undermines academic excellence. Inclusion enhances academic excellence by fostering a diverse and supportive learning environment. Accommodating diverse learning styles can lead to better outcomes for all students. Promoting a more holistic approach to education.

So, not everything has to be easy. Equal in order for it to be equitable. So, just like you wouldn't say, give somebody a pair of [00:07:00] glasses if they needed a pair of glasses to read or, if somebody couldn't reach a water fountain, wouldn't you make water fountains lower so people could use them in wheelchairs?

It's all the same. And getting people to understand that is half the battle. And parents may resist inclusion due to concerns about academic standards. Standards, but proper communication about the benefits of inclusion and education and its alignment with religious values can address parental concerns and demonstrating the positive impact on both academic and social development can help overcome that resistance.

Another, you know, misconception is that my money is going to be spent on your kid and it's being wasted. Faith based schools may lack resources for special education programs. Well, there are resources allocated in a valid consideration in faith based schools and you can do it with budgeting, you can do it with grants, you can do it with, [00:08:00] opportunity.

Scholarships now or the disability grant, there is money available to Catholic schools to help support that. So that's a misconception that, you know, parents, you're going to waste my money on another student that needs so much more than mine. So I think squashing those, helps a lot. to get to the next part.

And then, you know, getting teachers on board that I'm not trained to do this. Well, that's part of my job as an administrator, providing that professional development and also giving the supports needed. And if that means giving an aid in the classroom or breaking down the number of I mean, the days of having 30, 35 students in the classroom, we know that that's not educationally sound.

So why are we doing that anyway? So when we make smaller class sizes, it's a benefit to not just the students. the child with a learning difference, but to all children. I mean, some of the things that we do in [00:09:00] special education are a benefit to all students. And the way we differentiate instruction is a benefit to all students.

And I think making that clear to teachers and parents, that's the first step of getting everybody on board and understanding the mission.

And I think that's so important. That's something that I know. Like I said, I saw firsthand at your school and, just such an amaz I wish everybody out there could have just been with us there to see the amazing work that Dana's school did, but I know that's not possible through a podcast. So there's, surely there's principals out there that this just seems so overwhelming.

And they said, boy, I really want to do this. But I have nothing right now in terms of support, in terms of resource help, in terms of anything like that, and, and IEPs scare me, What do you, what do you advise that principal who's, who's considering this, but it's, it's just a, wow, I don't, I don't even know where to begin with this.

What would you say to him or her? Right.

with learning differences can indeed seem [00:10:00] overwhelming, but it's It's crucial to approach it systematically. So there are some key starting points for a school that might currently lack the support for students with learning differences, and that is an assessment and awareness.

So I would begin there. Begin by conduct. a comprehensive assessment for the current situation that you're in, identify the specific learning differences present among your students, and then understand the unique needs. So what I would do is start with students that you currently have that might be, we talk about, you know, tier one, tier two, tier three, those students that, are really requiring a whole lot of assistance, and the teacher in the classroom is Throwing everything they have at it.

So I would start there by assessing and making aware of what we're currently working with, what you're currently working with, and then raise awareness among the teachers, the staff, and parents about the importance of supporting students with those learning differences, and start providing some workshops and trainings and guest speakers [00:11:00] coming in.

Kind of like the soft, The soft pitch coming in with, let's just try to work with what we have and improve what we have currently, and then start with, like I said, parent training and workshops for teachers and for parents. And then professional development for the teachers, professional development opportunities for teachers to enhance their understanding of various learning differences and effective teaching strategies.

So that's even your tier three, your tier one, two, and three that we talk about right there. Even just professional development to deal with those three tiers can be so beneficial. And then you just keep adding on for there. You collaborate with experts. Special Education Professionals, Organizations that specialize in supporting students with learning differences.

All of those things can be free to Catholic education, Catholic schools, and they're so excited to work with us, and they want to come in, they want to be a part of it, [00:12:00] because they know that It also will help alleviate some of the public school. So there, there is a connection there for us to do well with students with learning differences.

And then you move from there to creating an inclusive environment. So instead of having that constant pull out and, when I was a kid, you know, if you needed extra support, it was like, Hey, Dana, go put your jacket on. I'm taking you out to the trailer outside. Oh wait, I need all the slugs.

Everybody in the slug group, come on and put your coat on and we're going to the trailer outside. The eagles, all the eagles, let's meet in the center of the floor. You know, you, all the teachers had like group names and everybody knew who the slow group was. It was awful. And that just crushes, you know, confidence and students are very aware.

They're more aware than you and I can ever imagine. So, providing professional development to teachers to understand what it [00:13:00] means to be inclusive instead of pull out, push in, unless the disability is so severe, which, Catholic schools may not have that support, but they should be able to push into classrooms and co teach and collaborate in a way that is effective.

So that would be the next step. I would say also, you know, establish a support team right off the bat. As you're doing all of these things, support a team, you know, get it together. Form a support team that includes educators, counselors, and possibly specialists in special education. This team can collaborate to develop strategies for individualized.

And assign a point person or a coordinator responsible for overseeing that support program and meet regularly, so that you know what you're dealing with. In, in Catholic education, we would take IEPs because we don't, use IEPs and we would [00:14:00] take them and turn them into service plans. So you're not using an IEP because we're not required to do everything in an IEP.

So when you start doing this, you can create a service plan and you can pick out from the IEP what you can and cannot do and be very clear with Yes, we can extend time. Yes, we can give extra help this many days a week. Yes, we'll make the pages bigger. Whatever it is that you as a team decide. Early on when you're first starting, what can we do?

It doesn't have to be everything, it can start small. And then these plans outline specific goals and accommodations and support strategies tailored to the student and what your school can support, either financially or with the, with the staffing, Or with the building, even. So you need to do that. And then, of course, parent involvement.

Make sure parents are, yeah, make sure parents are involved in the process. You know, [00:15:00] get people in your school community, parents that have, are experts in the, in different fields, being a part of this vision. Establish open lines of communication channels to discuss a student's progress, and share information with those parents.

And also with the greater community about what you're doing, you always want to be transparent because when you decide not to be transparent, that's when the program is in danger because with parents feel that you're hiding something or that you're trying to do something, that is not on board.

That's when you lose support. So as long as you're clear on what your expectations are, for the start of it and you're letting parents know that you're going to be okay and also having community partnerships. And then from there, like those are the soft things, then you can start doing policy development.

But I would start with students that you currently have identified in your building already before you start accepting students that already have learning differences. Students [00:16:00] that you have identified in your building already that may need testing, the last thing you want to do is say we, we can't serve your, if, if it's too severe, yes, I understand that, but if it is, if you are able to serve in a way that is, small enough.

We should be trying to do that and then start writing your policy and then continue, you know, then you can build on continuous improvement of your program.

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head too, is it's not going to happen in one day. We're not going to decide on Monday that we're going to do this and Tuesday to all be in place , and be together. And, we're really rolling on that one. And it takes time, , and it takes a commitment and it takes something that's, that's built into your core values of your school, I think.

Sure. I mean, you got to start small, start small, you know, gradually building on these incentives that can make the process more manageable. And it's important to involve stakeholders, be flexible in adapting the strategies, listen to your teachers. Listen to their [00:17:00] frustrations, listen to your students frustrations, and then maintain a commitment to creating an inclusive and supportive environment for all students.

Like, that is just the first step. Are you bought into creating an inclusive and supportive and learning environment for all students? If you can say that with 100 percent you can do the other steps. But you gotta be all in for it. You got to be all in.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I couldn't agree more on that one. Now, one of the things that, you'll hear a lot from principals, again, you mentioned it earlier. I don't have the money for this or my money. How would you, as you start this type of a program at your school, or as you, as you make this decision, How do you make the decision to allocate resources?

Because obviously, if we're going to bring in resource teachers or additional staffing to help our students who have learning differences, you know, that's going to maybe take money from another area or things like that. So how do you have those tough conversations with maybe a school [00:18:00] advisory council or a school board or things like that who feel that these resources should be allocated elsewhere?

When you make that conscious effort to say this is what we're going to do and why. If you have the why and you explain it to your advisory council, your pastor, and explain it in a way that, hey, this is all of God's children. We are saying in Catholic education, because your child was not made perfectly in a way that fits what we've done for years here, which is they have to excel or they have to be the smartest of the smart.

you can't be here. And if you can explain that and, and feel it. For your community. I think you'll get that support from your advisory and from your pastor, but then it's also a little by little building it into your budget and and you do have to make cuts to make that it has to be a priority. If it's not a priority and your priority is another program, then it's another program.

But you know, you [00:19:00] don't need a lot to start. It's a little by little. It can start in professional development for your teachers, making somebody the expert. For in your building? The Go-to person with professional development, it is, finding webinars that are free. It is using, connections like you, like me finding people that'll come out to your school that will do it.

I mean, I certainly will do it for any school free of charge coming out to do it. So there are people out there because they believe in it. That will do it for free. And also those community partnerships are huge. They will also be very supportive. So, you know, building a little bit by little bit in your budget, making an expert in, in, within your building helps.

, and also the professional development is critical.

And I think too that when you're talking about professional development, Those strategies that your teachers learn are going to benefit all students,

not just a few, okay? The strategies that they learn and the things that they can [00:20:00] bring into the classroom to put into their toolbox, everybody's going to benefit from that.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I would be lying if I said it's not going to, spend money in your budget, but it's money that benefits all students, like you're saying. You're not going to tell a parent, this isn't going to benefit your child. Of course it is, because the, the teacher is looking at it to what are every child's strengths or weaknesses, and then playing towards the strengths, and then building on the weaknesses.

So it, it's a win win for everyone. It's just good education. It's good practice.

It's best practices. That's

exactly what it is. Tell me, in your school, and you had mentioned before about having a process in place, if a school suspects that there may be a learning difference or something at play, the immediate answer is always, you know, go get them tested, rather than say, okay, let's go through the steps here.

What, what process or what steps did, did you have in your school or have you used in the past to kind of walk through things so that you don't go from zero to [00:21:00] 60 in, in two seconds and, and, but also to make sure that you're helping that student out who may have some, some extra needs.

We have used a lot of the, , tier programming, Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, which is like, this is like the first step. We're, we're just going to collect some data. We're going to see where the weakness is. Oh, now we're going to have the student, You know, pulled to the side and the teacher working to that.

Oh, now the student might need to be pulled out for some extra support or push having a staff member push in, for this student. And then once we've done all of those things, and we're keeping a portfolio, we're keeping assessment pieces on that. Once we do that, and then we get to a point where we've exhausted, because your public schools are going to look for those tiers, and they're going to look for evidence, they're going to see what, what did you do, what, how did you try to support this student, and if you don't do those things, they're not going to test.

They're going to [00:22:00] bounce them right back to you anyway and say, Hey, I need you to collect some data. I need a lot of data, before we're even going to test because they're, they are so backlogged right now with testing for students in public schools because of COVID and everything else, you're just going to get bounced back if you haven't done your due diligence as.

as a, you know, Catholic school, to go back to the public school for testing. So we do all of those tiers. The first one is, , this is the interventions that we've done. Then we're going to ramp it up, and then we're going to ramp it up even more, and then we're going to keep assessments, and we're going to chart, and we're going to make sure we're doing benchmarking and collecting all that data.

And then we're going to say, This student needs to be tested, and then we'll ask for a meeting, we set up that meeting, we go to the public school, and then we request testing, and then you go through that whole process of 30, 60, 90 days, , which can be a very long process, especially for students who are struggling, because you might identify that student, it [00:23:00] might take two months three months to gather the information, especially in first, second grade, third grade.

So now you're building, you know, your arsenal to go to public school to get the testing. And then you're going to have to wait for the testing. So you can sometimes lose a full year before that student gets testing and enabled to get those. Services. So that's where a Catholic school can cut through so much of that red tape right away because, you know, we know what we're seeing.

So if we know what we're seeing, we can give those students the support needed within that support system. right away. You don't need that documentation to say with when you have teachers with 30 years of experience. I mean, we all have been there like, yep, that's got a flavor. We know what we're looking at.

And so we can start addressing it right away without that documentation. So that's a benefit for us as, as a Catholic school. ,

And that makes your [00:24:00] Catholic schools, as you've said, accessible to, to all of your students, which is the name of the game. We're Catholic schools, not private schools. And, uh, and, and that's something I know you and I both feel very passionately about. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and it opens us up to having more students, and being able to spread our faith and all of the things that we want for Catholic education.

Awesome. Dana, I cannot thank you enough for your time today and and for being with us on the podcast. It's always great to see you. You're such a great resource in this and and wish you nothing but the best, in your, uh, in the rest of this year.

Thank you, John. Thank you for having me. And at any time, any schools I would be happy to speak to as a Catholic school, educator, it is close to my heart and I'm, I would certainly be willing to help anytime.

Can I ask for your your contact information if somebody wanted to reach out with a question?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

All right, and then I'll get that and I'll put it down in the in the show notes below if you have questions for Dana. She is [00:25:00] truly a on this subject and, uh, just thank you so much for being with us today.

you're welcome. Thanks, John. Talk to you soon.

Thank you so much to Dana for being so passionate about helping all of our students who want a Catholic education be sure they receive a Catholic education. I'm going to include her contact information in the show notes below. Don't forget to like and subscribe to receive updates on future Catholic School Leaders podcast episodes.

I encourage you to visit www.

elementaryadvancement. com to learn more about the services offered by Elementary Advancement Solutions. including our coaching services in enrollment, development, and leadership, as well as our mastermind groups available for Principals, Aspiring Principals, Development Directors, and Admissions and Recruitment Directors.

I'd welcome the chance to have a virtual cup of coffee with you to discuss how we can help your school move Catholic education forward. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.[00:26:00]